Guitar tech gurus. Question about intonation (pic included)

L

Lord Toneking

New member
So I have this Suhr S4 with a Gotoh 510. I'm a pretty handy guy and after many years of tinkering I've become pretty good at setting up my own guitars. This one however is giving me a bit of fits. It's a love/hate with this guitar. It plays great, sounds great, but doesn't stay in tune and after a few packs of strings I cannot get the intonation just right on it. Especially the high E. Typically on most guitars you'll get a stair step sequence from the D A and low E then it's shifts with another stair step with the high E B and G string. Notice in the pic how I'm almost out of adjustment on the high E :confused:

I've set the guitar up to Suhr's specs that they emailed me. I've cleaned the nut (and use big bends nut sauce), blocked the trem, and buffed the saddles with a dremel to assure no burrs.

Like I said, I love the guitar...but I'm about to send it off somewhere just to see what I'm missing.

Any ideas??
 
Note sure I totally understand the question and all my guitars have OFR...

Since each saddle can be adjusted in height, that might slightly affect the intonation. Perhaps just remove the spring, cut it down and that should give you more adjustment
 
Move the saddle all the way forward and start again. Also make sure you're doing all the work with the guitar in the playing position and not on its back.
 
As was mentioned move the high e saddle all the way forward. When you are done setting the intonation it should be ahead of the b string saddle.

Before you set the intonation, press down lightly on the strings just ahead of the saddle. Sometimes they come off the saddle with a slight curve. Also press on them just ahead of and behind the nut. Stretch the strings and retune. Now you can set your intonation. Don't pull too hard when stretching strings and you may have to do it a few times before they settle in. Unless your nut is seriously binding, you should be good to go.
 
XSSIVE":5drl9ta8 said:
Move the saddle all the way forward and start again. Also make sure you're doing all the work with the guitar in the playing position and not on its back.
Click to expand...
I tried that after two string changes with no change
 
SpiderWars":24r2tav8 said:
It shouldn't have to be set back like that. Are you sure the nut is back-filed properly?
Click to expand...
It's a stock tusq but that comes on the Suhr guitars. I don't have nut files but I did clean all the slots and there's no binding or pinging noises
 
It just seems that the problem is likely at the nut. If the leading edge of the nut slot for that string is off it will affect string length at that end. If so, you're just trying to compensate for it at the other end.

Edit: it's like a balance with fulcrum at 12th fret (half the string length). Lengthen either end and the other end has to lengthen to balance.
 
gauge of strings and tuning?

how are you wrapping the tuning pegs?

what tuners are you using to intonate your guitar with?
 
eternal_idol":2smp019u said:
gauge of strings and tuning?

how are you wrapping the tuning pegs?

what tuners are you using to intonate your guitar with?
Click to expand...
9-42 strings, Sperzel locking tuners, and a Fractal AX8
 
SpiderWars":3ei5p0k3 said:
It just seems that the problem is likely at the nut. If the leading edge of the nut slot for that string is off it will affect string length at that end. If so, you're just trying to compensate for it at the other end.

Edit: it's like a balance with fulcrum at 12th fret (half the string length). Lengthen either end and the other end has to lengthen to balance.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking that it has to be the nut as well. I guess I'll just order a new nut and see what happens

Thanks
 
Lord Toneking":1u0bi2m7 said:
eternal_idol":1u0bi2m7 said:
gauge of strings and tuning?

how are you wrapping the tuning pegs?

what tuners are you using to intonate your guitar with?
Click to expand...
9-42 strings, Sperzel locking tuners, and a Fractal AX8
Click to expand...

Ack!, you've dropped a whole gauge from the factory set. IIRC they come from factory with coated 10-46's on them so tension closer to 10.5 gauge set once all said and done.

Spider Wars nailed it.


Lord Toneking":1u0bi2m7 said:
SpiderWars":1u0bi2m7 said:
It just seems that the problem is likely at the nut. If the leading edge of the nut slot for that string is off it will affect string length at that end. If so, you're just trying to compensate for it at the other end.

Edit: it's like a balance with fulcrum at 12th fret (half the string length). Lengthen either end and the other end has to lengthen to balance.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking that it has to be the nut as well. I guess I'll just order a new nut and see what happens

Thanks
Click to expand...

You've dropped a gauge from factory, so you can either try a new nut that is slotted for your gauge of preference or bump you strings up to factory gauge.

also the string distance measurements are likely with 10's on the guitar, so +0.001 mm to the measurement on the high end and +0.004 mm on the low end if you decide to switch nuts.
 
eternal_idol":hvjtp84c said:
Lord Toneking":hvjtp84c said:
eternal_idol":hvjtp84c said:
gauge of strings and tuning?

how are you wrapping the tuning pegs?

what tuners are you using to intonate your guitar with?
Click to expand...
9-42 strings, Sperzel locking tuners, and a Fractal AX8
Click to expand...

Ack!, you've dropped a whole gauge from the factory set. IIRC they come from factory with coated 10-46's on them so tension closer to 10.5 gauge set once all said and done.

Spider Wars nailed it.


Lord Toneking":hvjtp84c said:
SpiderWars":hvjtp84c said:
It just seems that the problem is likely at the nut. If the leading edge of the nut slot for that string is off it will affect string length at that end. If so, you're just trying to compensate for it at the other end.

Edit: it's like a balance with fulcrum at 12th fret (half the string length). Lengthen either end and the other end has to lengthen to balance.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking that it has to be the nut as well. I guess I'll just order a new nut and see what happens

Thanks
Click to expand...

You've dropped a gauge from factory, so you can either try a new nut that is slotted for your gauge of preference or bump you strings up to factory gauge.

also the string distance measurements are likely with 10's on the guitar, so +0.001 mm to the measurement on the high end and +0.004 mm on the low end if you decide to switch nuts.
Click to expand...
Thats a great point I never thought of. I'll go pick up some 10's and give it a shot.

Thanks!
 
no problem, I consider it a joint effort :p

if there are still issues you might have some funky settings in the tuner config(like the offsets), I can't find exact non-anecdotal specifications of the Tuner function of fractal products.

Its been "claimed" that is more accurate than Korg, boss and TC yet lags behind Turbo Tune.

I'm kinda set in my ways, so my first reach is for a Tu-3, Show up for a tech gig and that is kinda what the Artist is usually expecting at minimum. Peterson App was great but i no longer have an iPhone, and android does their inputs differently, I should really get around to getting atleast a stomp strobe to keep in kit now.
 
I do all the setups on my guitars but all have OFR. Not sure I understand how the sting gauge would have anything to do with this - how does the gauge effect length and intonation?
 
Its a balancing act that is tough to explain in a simple way. As there are a magnitude of factors that come into play.

the main factor right now in this particular situation, IMHO, is that the nut isn't cut for this gauge.

by this effect, the Core of the wound strings is in a different place then when set up in the factory, as lighter gauge strings will have a smaller core and narrower wrappings.
the width of vibration in the string is wider when you have lighter strings, thus making it easier to fret out or buzz out, to combat this as we see in the OP.

he has added length to the plain strings @ the saddle in attempts to bring the tension in line with what will stay in tune.

now to compound that all, with forward tension (ie neck tension) and backwards tension (spring tension, this part is minimized if they guitar in question is not a floating/recessed trem), unbalanced string tensions (the average set is SOOOOO far from balanced it ain't funny), magnetic pull damping the string vibration from the pick ups, for older guitars how level the peak in the frets can also become and issue (also a factor with sub pro-grade instruments, however Suhr's don't fit THAT profile)

Depending on how old the guitar is, or how much play it gets. A fret "polish" might be in order.
(laymens: clean the fretboard with 0000 steel wool, don't mask off the frets and be GENTLE, you want to make the frets shine but not take much if anything off them, you will need a bit of elbow grease but you don't want to go whole hog on it. then depending on the fretboard wood treat the fretboard with appropriate oil. if you want something that can used on all types, Pure Tung oil, I know people that use Linseed Oil but i've never used it personally so it might be an option, just one i've not thoroughly looked into. Most music store cleaners are lemon/mineral oil based and will stain maple boards slightly, these are OK but not ideal for rosewood and perhaps ebony boards. )
 
eternal_idol":1h1tgess said:
Its a balancing act that is tough to explain in a simple way. As there are a magnitude of factors that come into play.

the main factor right now in this particular situation, IMHO, is that the nut isn't cut for this gauge.

by this effect, the Core of the wound strings is in a different place then when set up in the factory, as lighter gauge strings will have a smaller core and narrower wrappings.
the width of vibration in the string is wider when you have lighter strings, thus making it easier to fret out or buzz out, to combat this as we see in the OP.

he has added length to the plain strings @ the saddle in attempts to bring the tension in line with what will stay in tune.

now to compound that all, with forward tension (ie neck tension) and backwards tension (spring tension, this part is minimized if they guitar in question is not a floating/recessed trem), unbalanced string tensions (the average set is SOOOOO far from balanced it ain't funny), magnetic pull damping the string vibration from the pick ups, for older guitars how level the peak in the frets can also become and issue (also a factor with sub pro-grade instruments, however Suhr's don't fit THAT profile)

Depending on how old the guitar is, or how much play it gets. A fret "polish" might be in order.
(laymens: clean the fretboard with 0000 steel wool, don't mask off the frets and be GENTLE, you want to make the frets shine but not take much if anything off them, you will need a bit of elbow grease but you don't want to go whole hog on it. then depending on the fretboard wood treat the fretboard with appropriate oil. if you want something that can used on all types, Pure Tung oil, I know people that use Linseed Oil but i've never used it personally so it might be an option, just one i've not thoroughly looked into. Most music store cleaners are lemon/mineral oil based and will stain maple boards slightly, these are OK but not ideal for rosewood and perhaps ebony boards. )
Click to expand...

I understand all of that but I still don't see how it plays into intonation which is ultimately string length. Other factors you reference are all part of the setup aside from intonation. Sure, if the string is sitting higher or lower at the nut or bridge it will make a extremely minor effect on the length and all that should be easily adjusted for - if I was to trig it out, that would be a lot of leading zeros after the decimal point :)
 
I can not believe string gage is the culprit.
By the way...its +0.001( one thousands of and inch.)
Did you call Suhr and talk over the phone?

Remember I told you John has a way to "set" the strings at the saddle,nut and tuner.
DO NOT stretch them like everyone has done over the years. Over stretching causes all kinds of problems
and will make a killer guitar sounds out of tune.

Bring it up here and we'll set it with my measuring tools...not a fucking tape measure,you hack.
LOL
 
SpiderWars":2wfhgqw3 said:
It shouldn't have to be set back like that. Are you sure the nut is back-filed properly?
Click to expand...
^^^^^^^

going out of tune and intonation changing is going to be the nut just needing 30 seconds of work
 
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