Songwriters Chime In. What Do You Do When...

There are three problems which have always limited me and I wan't to finally overcome them. The first is when I come up with a cool sounding riff but can't seem to figure out where to go from there. Most of the time, I end up going off into a whole other direction trying to figure it out and lose my original idea in the process. I'll try different things like making a few different versions of the riff, screw around with chord inversions or the relative key, etc..

The second problem is when I have a riff in my head, I can't seem to find the right notes to express it even if I work out all the notes in key. Sometimes I try to hum the notes and figure out what sounds right. Sometimes what sounds right doesn't even fit the mode shapes, then it's like what the fuck am I supposed to use now?

Then the third problem comes when I figure out a backing rhythm in one key, but trying to solo in that key either sounds bland or some notes in the mode patterns don't seem to sound in key. I typically use the 3-note per string mode shapes or pentatonic shapes. Sometimes where the mode shapes seem like they should work, they don't, but the pentatonic shapes do.

The thing is that I've always wanted just a simple way to go about jamming and composing, but I just don't think there's really a simple way to go about it, so I'm spending some time learning more theory. Anyway, that's what I've got to fix right now. Any tips would be a great help.

Don't know if this is any help as I know jack shit about theory, but have been writing material for 25-30 years now. If it sounds in key to me, then it's in key. While writing riffs into songs for my band, it's all about the transitions. After all these years I can write a transition to anywhere lol. This is a recording my band did a couple years back, not showing it because I think it's so great, but that song dirtnap is all about the transitions. None of the riffs really go together, but I like how it came out. https://carolyn803.bandcamp.com/releases

1. What does the riff sound like? Intro, verse, chorus, hook? A rough idea to know what part is coming next.

2. If it sounds good, do it.

3. If it sounds good, do it.

It's always a challenge, that's what keeps it fun. You never master it. Bounce ideas off the singer, he could hear it a whole different way. Things that sound off to you may sound great to another, and be able to piece it together to make sense.

Record everything.

Hope that helps just a little.

mchn13":2z9kpuxa said:

Don't know if this is any help as I know jack shit about theory, but have been writing material for 25-30 years now. If it sounds in key to me, then it's in key. While writing riffs into songs for my band, it's all about the transitions. After all these years I can write a transition to anywhere lol. This is a recording my band did a couple years back, not showing it because I think it's so great, but that song dirtnap is all about the transitions. None of the riffs really go together, but I like how it came out. https://carolyn803.bandcamp.com/releases

Click to expand...

That was pretty cool actually.

tubortski":2z9kpuxa said:

1. What does the riff sound like? Intro, verse, chorus, hook? A rough idea to know what part is coming next.

2. If it sounds good, do it.

3. If it sounds good, do it.

It's always a challenge, that's what keeps it fun. You never master it. Bounce ideas off the singer, he could hear it a whole different way. Things that sound off to you may sound great to another, and be able to piece it together to make sense.

Record everything.

Hope that helps just a little.

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's probably good advice. Fuck it. I think I just need to start playing with a band. I'm way too critical of myself to only be playing by myself all the time. Maybe you're right. If I have other people to bounce things off of, then I'll probably get a lot further. When it's just me, I shoot everything down before anything gets off the ground.

Messing around with inversions or secondary guitar lines helps, writing a melody over top of it might help 'direct' things as well. Transposing it to piano or some other instrument might also make you think outside the box. I've found that in many cases, just recording it so you don't forget, and letting it ferment for a while will reveal a good answer.

As for the soloing issue, a general rule of thumb is that the more specific your backing chords are, the more limited your soloing note choice might be. As an extreme example, paddling a rhymthic octave in G gives you almost free reign to do whatever you want, but coming up with something over 7#9 chords will be more restrictive.

I was listening to a Nick Johnston interview recently where he stated that he will write the melody first, then try to build an unusual progression under it, which is somewhat backwards from how most would approach it.

People are often their own worst critic. I am willing to bet much of the stuff you write is good,but you are always wanting to make it better...and then wind up over thinking it. This is where having another set of ears you trust can help.

Write with a drum machine. Keep the tempo even,and change the pattern between riffs. Often when you change the drum pattern before writing the next riff,inspiration will strike quickly.

Also,transposing a riff you have written to a different key(and therefore a different hand position on the fretboard)can yield a new way of thinking the note progression/feel/etc of the riff. Just moving the root note from an open string to a fretted note can open the thought process bigtime.

I notice when I'm doing a song, sometimes it goes somewhere different than what I originally intended.

Write with vocals in mind

I usually start with a chorus or a verse
I hum the melody and then find the right
Key and phrasings leave space to let the guitar breathe

The most important thing to me in the soli
Is the rythm because it's the foundation
The solo I do is usually a mix of slow melodic lines and some fast stuff
The other thing also don't solo where you don't have to
And listen to the drums to as rhythmic soloing is cool too

SavageRiffer":36fm6058 said:

Most of the time, I end up going off into a whole other direction trying to figure it out and lose my original idea in the process.

Click to expand...

That was me until I read some interview with the Lamb of God drummer commenting on how Dave Mustaine would play back all kinds of riffs to him when coming up with song ideas. He said the riffs sounded like he would record them just about anywhere (hotels/bus/car/etc). So I grabbed a good recorder app for my phone and have been recording all my late night riffs etc before I forget them or before they morph into something totally different (which has been good and bad lol).

SavageRiffer":36fm6058 said:

The second problem is when I have a riff in my head, I can't seem to find the right notes to express it even if I work out all the notes in key. Sometimes I try to hum the notes and figure out what sounds right.

Click to expand...

I now literally hum out loud a riff in my head while im driving or something and record with my phone to sound out note for note at a later time... it helps

SavageRiffer":36fm6058 said:

The thing is that I've always wanted just a simple way to go about jamming and composing, but I just don't think there's really a simple way to go about it, so I'm spending some time learning more theory. Anyway, that's what I've got to fix right now. Any tips would be a great help.

Click to expand...

Besides using a daw (Reaper) with drum sims, I've finally been using my looper in various ways to help me figure out cool slayer or testament style harmonies etc or trying to mess with solo stuff with a cool riff. Good luck man!

I second writing with a drum machine it will inspire changes that will work..what I do

Sometimes simplifying something can help get the train back on track. A minimalist approach can be built upon. That's how a lot of great music is made. Also, if you have the ability, record what you're doing and listen back. Go part by part.

Not sure it's of much use but I tend to strum things out (yes, even heavier stuff) on the acoustic....It gives an honest feeling back to you and allows you to start singing/humming/yodeling from the soul.....A click track and studio headphones are also a must....I track out my ideas sometimes that way....

Cornell's death made me think how great he was at taking something really simple and making it awesome and interesting. I'd have shit-canned every one of those ideas because I have no clue what to do with it or how to make it interesting. I wouldn't have 'seen' the potential.

Then there's another issue that I seem to suffer from; every chord progression seems to remind me of another song. And once I am reminded of that song it's game over. That idea gets shit-canned just because it sounds like or reminds me of another song.

I hate trying to write with my singer (rhythm guitar player). He's like a musical encyclopedia and anything I come up with he instantly starts singing a song that has a similiar chord progression makes it impossible. And I can't write lyrics worth a damn

This is a great topic. Probably the first time I've ever agreed with everyone in an RT thread.

1. I too tend to play 3NPS scale/mode shapes. It's my comfort zone. It's easy though to NOT be melodic in this way since face it, you're playing sequentially through a scale. So I make sure I don't play too many notes that are next to each other on a string. That's when you start to hear melodies in what you're doing. At least that's my experience.

2. Listening to everything and anything else, does help your perspective. I too was recently listening to Soundgarden and noted how "simple" the guitar parts were. But that's because the vocal was "the thing". Important lesson though.

3. Just push through. That cool riff that just "happens" is always going to be a jewel. But when you take that riff and then put your nose to the grind-stone to find other parts to go with it, it's difficult to stumble upon something that feels as cool. I think that's because we're no longer stumbling onto stuff but instead, are trying to deliberately come up with something that's as "cool".

In regards to solos - one thing I will do sometimes is mimic the vocal melody and branch off of that (if the solo section chords are same structure as verse / chorus etc). Its an easy way to get started and then usually the ideas start to flow.

Another thing to do is to go a full step up (from the verse part) in terms of the chords and solo off that. Key changes can inspire you as well.

When I write songs it is usually always with a vocal part and I let that drive the song. Instrumentals can be harder and challenging as I am not that inventive when it comes to guitar parts etc. I try to seek out a hook or memorable part to build a song around.

I think songwriting becomes easier the more you do it. But I write my share of bad tunes hahah

I have a song that took five years to write. I had the main riff, but could not figure out where to go for a chorus. I would jam the riff every so often... then one day it clicked with a chorus part that was perfect. I have learned that you should probably throw music theory out of the window when writing. The language of music is great for communicating with other musicians, but some times can get in the way of writing. If it sounds good to you, go with it. I had also learned that if you write to make yourself happy, it will usually pay off more than writing what you think will make others happy.

Mattfig":310f34jt said:

Not sure it's of much use but I tend to strum things out (yes, even heavier stuff) on the acoustic....It gives an honest feeling back to you and allows you to start singing/humming/yodeling from the soul.....A click track and studio headphones are also a must....I track out my ideas sometimes that way....

Click to expand...

This happened to me yesterday...I started off with the idea of writing hooks on my acoustic, then transferring to electric, but they didn't transfer quite as nicely. I had this vision about how it would sound, but as I started laying down the electric I hated it-mush central. So, I left it acoustic, and I think I'm okay with that.

I wouldn't call myself a "songwriter" Per-say and I don't Do lyrics. that for the most part would be the vocalists job.. I'm A.ok with instrumental LOL.

back to writing music however.

I have a 'I4" "method"

Imitation, Inspiration, Innovation and individuality.

Play what you like to hear and physically can't do anything but to groove out in. Play it wrong and see where takes you that isn't where it was.

If it sounds samey you can do better. If its to basic, does it need to be complicated? if its complicated does it need to be basic and simple? little or big picture this all applies. Does it stick in your head after you put your guitar down? no? maybe spice up the chords with different adds. if the chord structure is to complex could it benefit from using simpler chords?

on a part to part basis, or on song by song basis.

Most of all, Record your jams. like when you just play, press record and edit later. cut the crap keep the good and gold to "learn" later. eventually whole compositions will be sitting there waiting to be realized its just when the puzzle pieces fall into place.

Another way is to find a song that is somewhat comparable to your riff and see what progression that song uses.