modern high gain amp vs. old amp with boost pedals

idnotbe

New member
some ppl say, for ex, "JCM800 with SD-1 will stomp Friedman" or sth like that.
then, the other guy can say "i would sell my all Friedman, if it were possible".

a simple reply like "i prefer boost pedals" cannot elaborate the discussion.
so, i want to hear "WHY" as well as your preference.
and your set up info is also appreciated.

my limited experience is...

modern high gain amp : thicker, modern tone. but less dynamic.
old amp with boost pedals : better than stock old amp. but hard to eliminate the bloom and scooped mid.
 
An old amp with a boost pedal will sound like an old amp with a boost pedal (not a bad thing).
A modern high gain amp will sound like a modern high gain amp (also not a bad thing).

Use the right tool for the job. It's going to depend on the sound you need for the application. Music is just like painting. You choose the right color and brush for the look and tonality you want. There are no rules here. I choose the guitar, pickups, amp, cab, and speakers for the sound I want at the time. I'm never going to go, "oh I need to use a JCM800 with a boost for everything because some dude on the interwebs said so."

Some bands and music wouldn't sound right with this amp or that amp. Just gotta think about the big picture here. The amp needs to fit in with the rest of the band. For example, Adam Jones from Tool actually prefers the Dual Rectifier to the VH4. He would rather use the Boogie. But the rest of the band says the VH4 fits the mix and style and timbre of where the band is these days. I don't think Killswitch Engage would sound the same if they used boosted JMPs instead of modern high gain amps. They probably did run JCM800s at one point though. Just use whatever you think sounds right.
 
Views on sound are always subjective. Personally I prefer modern amps for modern sounds.... and vintage amps for vintage sounds.

Why... Because vintage amps never have the focus and articulation of modern amps in my experience.

These are only generalizations. Particular cases results can be all over the place.
 
This ^^^....I absolutely love cranking my two 68" bandmaster reverbs way up with a BE overdrive in front in stereo.I just as much love cranking up my Bogner XTC or Elmwood M90 with nothing but guitar into amp and having at it....Both these two senarios just sound way too good to have it just one way.
 
stephen sawall":nd7dwlxv said:
Views on sound are always subjective. Personally I prefer modern amps for modern sounds.... and vintage amps for vintage sounds.

Why... Because vintage amps never have the focus and articulation of modern amps in my experience.

These are only generalizations. Particular cases results can be all over the place.
This^^^
The power supply filtering in modern high gainer's is usually much different than the vintage amps. Then you have the effect of hitting the front end of the vintage amp with a boosted signal vs the multiple stages of cascading gain in the modern amps. This has a dramatic effect on the FEEL, even if you can generally match the tone. Would also account for the focus and articulation differences as well.
 
I like both scenarios a lot and can't make up my mind.... So be it! I will use both as my mood dictates!
 
Sorry if this is over-generalized, and I know I'm leaving a lot out, but...

Back in the 60s, master volumes were almost unheard of. Overdriven sounds were simply the byproduct of turning the amps up load (which was necessary because good PAs were almost unheard of, too). If you wanted more sustain, more drive, you had to use a boost. There wasn't a lot of choice there, either, but some true classics came from that era: Rangemaster, Tonebender, Fuzz Face, Big Muff, etc.

In the 70s, both Marshall and Fender (among others) introduced master volumes, most notably IMHO, the JMP 2203. At the time, the argument was between the "full" sound of a NMV amp vs. the "fizzy" tone of a MV amp. Once either was cranked to 10, there wasn't a lot of difference, but neither is what we now consider high-gain. Boost pedals evolved, too. The sound of a Rat or an MXR Distortion+ into a Plexi or a 2203 is still as relevant today as it was 40 years ago. But we still wanted more...

In the 80s, we finally got into true high-gain territory with the Boogie Mark Series and many flavors of modded Marshalls. These are also still relevant sounds, but we still wanted more. As the 80s progressed, many builders started refining these designs (think Soldano, Bogner, Fryette (VHT), etc.) in an effort to give the sound more focus, more definition, more tightness, more feel, more aggressiveness... This continues to this day with builders like Diezel, Friedman, Cameron, Fortin, Engator, etc., etc., etc.

FourT6and2 makes a great comparison with painting. These are all different colors. Maybe we started out with red, but now we have bright red, Ferrari red, fire engine red, rocket red, candy red... sometimes we need candy red, sometimes just plain old red is exactly what's called for. The additional colors don't make any of the rest any more or less relevant; they're all just different shades. It all comes down to what the particular painting calls for, on any given day, for any given painter.

There's no way that my old Ross Distortion (my first pedal) into my JCM 800 2204 or JMP 2203 is ever going to be as searingly aggressive as plugging into my Diezel Herbert, but it still brings a huge grin to my face and is still amazingly fun to play, if that's what the music I'm making calls for. On the other hand, sometimes the Herbert is exactly what I need and nothing else will do. The smile it brings to my face is just as big. Sometimes, I need the vocality of my Bogner XTC. Sometimes, I need the fluidity of my Boogie Studio Pre and Switchtrack 395. Sometimes, I need the raw aggression of my Fender 6G6B Bassman.

I guess my point is that they are all just different flavors. Comparing a boosted MV Marshall to a Friedman is like comparing a Soldano SLO to a BE-100. It's really apples and oranges. All tube amps share similar circuitry. There are only so many ways to wire up a tube to make it produce gain, but the devil is truly in the details, which is why a Friedman doesn't sound like a Cameron. And thank God for that!! There are so many colors available today, so much more left to be discovered.

Anyway, I hope this helps a little. I have a mix of older and newer amps, and boxes full of boost/drive pedals. I'd be more than happy to discuss more specific details of anything I have or why I've made the choices I have. At the end of the day, the only thing I think that truly matters is the tone in your head and how best to get there and make it come out of your speakers.
 
Depends on the amp and what do you consider vintage? My Mark 2C++ can get modern tones with ease. A 5150 with a pedal can get modern tones.
 
fusedbrain":1ahvehjv said:
stephen sawall":1ahvehjv said:
Views on sound are always subjective. Personally I prefer modern amps for modern sounds.... and vintage amps for vintage sounds.

Why... Because vintage amps never have the focus and articulation of modern amps in my experience.

These are only generalizations. Particular cases results can be all over the place.
This^^^
The power supply filtering in modern high gainer's is usually much different than the vintage amps. Then you have the effect of hitting the front end of the vintage amp with a boosted signal vs the multiple stages of cascading gain in the modern amps. This has a dramatic effect on the FEEL, even if you can generally match the tone. Would also account for the focus and articulation differences as well.
This. I always get the most satisfaction from pushing the power sections as much as I can handle, and the vintage amps seem to give me the biggest smile. So I tend to favor vintage amps more. But I differ with the focus and articulation opinion, I feel modern amps struggle to get what I hear in vintage amps, at least when it comes to Marshall tone.
 
When I said focus and articulation I mean the definition is lost as the volume goes up. My statement is about all vintage amps... Not one brand like Marshall. No matter what you do your never going to get the clarity and thump of Deliverance or Herbert with a stock vintage amp.
 
And I enjoy cranking a modern high gainer, and boosting the crap out of it. The modern amp produces a thicker sound yet it’s still tight in the low end thanks to the boost and it cuts through in a mix too.
 
I prefer modern tube amps. I have a modded 800 and markIII++,but they don't make me grin like the Diezel,peters,DAR or KSR stuff does. Just glad I lived long enough to see modern designers make the amps I could never have dreamed of when I was a kid.
 
The SLO was released in 1987, so it depends on what one considers vintage. The Bogner XTC was from '90 or '91, IIRC, and the Diezel VH4 was from '92. Personally, I consider them all more modern than vintage, but they've all been around for at least 25 years.
 
I just favor amps that bloom with more power. I have had some vintage Marshalls that do that better than others. 2C++, SLO, Deliverance seem to be consistent with that. The right Marshall stock or vintage can also get one there.
 
Racerxrated":1vagqzth said:
This. I always get the most satisfaction from pushing the power sections as much as I can handle, and the vintage amps seem to give me the biggest smile. So I tend to favor vintage amps more. But I differ with the focus and articulation opinion, I feel modern amps struggle to get what I hear in vintage amps, at least when it comes to Marshall tone.

i've been always curious... with modern amps, you can also pushing the power section just by turning the MV up.
is there real limit in modern amps' power section, comparing to JCM800 or JMP ??

Racerxrated":1vagqzth said:
I just favor amps that bloom with more power. I have had some vintage Marshalls that do that better than others. 2C++, SLO, Deliverance seem to be consistent with that. The right Marshall stock or vintage can also get one there.

i wonder how you can get a stock vintage marshall there.
can you share the exact setup?
 
I'll go with modern, since I currently have two modern amps. I only one amp that would require a drive pedal. I don't dislike pedals though, considering some sort of drive pedal for my 1972 Silverface Bassman 100.

I just play guitar at home these days so the only amp I can crank is my 1 watt Marshall JVM1h.
 
idnotbe":2vb3b92u said:
Racerxrated":2vb3b92u said:
This. I always get the most satisfaction from pushing the power sections as much as I can handle, and the vintage amps seem to give me the biggest smile. So I tend to favor vintage amps more. But I differ with the focus and articulation opinion, I feel modern amps struggle to get what I hear in vintage amps, at least when it comes to Marshall tone.

i've been always curious... with modern amps, you can also pushing the power section just by turning the MV up.
is there real limit in modern amps' power section, comparing to JCM800 or JMP ??

Racerxrated":2vb3b92u said:
I just favor amps that bloom with more power. I have had some vintage Marshalls that do that better than others. 2C++, SLO, Deliverance seem to be consistent with that. The right Marshall stock or vintage can also get one there.

i wonder how you can get a stock vintage marshall there.
can you share the exact setup?
I can't speak to the circuit differences in vintage Marshalls vs modern offerings but I just find that a good 2203 or superlead has a sweet spot at volume that I can't find with a more recent Marshall. Not sure why other than vintage transformers or other vintage parts. If you like a Marshall tone then IMO you need to search out a good vintage version vs a reissue. It's hard to describe but when I get a different amp in and push it, I'll know as I turn it up if it stays or not.
The trick or hard part is trying to find that right Marshall. They are all good IMO but some are special. I buy from GC.com often when it comes to Marshalls because if it doesn't have the right stuff I can return it within 45 days. The previous poster talking about filtering in the power section, that may be the difference in these vintage Marshalls but I can't speak on having much technical knowledge of it personally.
As others have said, a really great amp that has that special power section is the VHT Deliverance. And used they are less than 1K usually.
 
ChurchHill":3a0uokcz said:
The SLO was released in 1987, so it depends on what one considers vintage. The Bogner XTC was from '90 or '91, IIRC, and the Diezel VH4 was from '92. Personally, I consider them all more modern than vintage, but they've all been around for at least 25 years.

I don't think it's the physical age that matters. It's the circuit design. The SLO has a few cascaded gain stages, a clipping circuit, and a hi-def power section. It's definitely a "modern" high-gain amp. Arguably one that helped create the genre. Compare that to a JCM800, for example, which is definitely closer to a "vintage" amp if we're actually talking about circuit design and not just age. The SLO's crunch channel can certainly cop a "vintage" sound though.
 
I prefer an amp that gives me a tone I love WITHOUT having anything besides a cable between it and my guitar. For a different flavor, I switch to a different amp entirely. Now do I own about 10 boost/distortion pedals... yeah but, do I use them? No, well... except for the rare occasion I plug into my Flexi 50.
 
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