New Production 12AX7s - Which Are the Best ??

Been doing some tweaking lately, rolling tubes through some of my amps, so I thought I'd run the following past everyone just to see if I'm missing something.

First, I'm limiting this to just 12AX7s and excluding any of the variants. AT, AU, AY, 5751, and various mid-gain AX I've left out only because I'm trying to keep this relatively simple.

Second, while I've got a decent stash of NOS tubes, I'm also leaving those out. I have some "vintage" amps that those are reserved for, mostly since that's what they were designed around. I think most if not all new amps are designed around new production tubes, so I try to stay true to that. It's not that I think I couldn't find at least as good if not better NOS. It's just that I'm trying to keep mine for the amps that really do need them.

Right now, I've got ten types that I've run through different amps with different results. I expected that, as some tubes work better in some circuits than they do in others, not to mention the differences between similar tubs due to manufacturing tolerances. Then, there are four that I am aware of that I do not currently have. I'll note all of these below.

What I'd like to learn about is what everyone else has experienced with these tubes. Are there any others that I'm not listing that I should try? Also, I doubt all of this information is correct and/or complete. So, please correct me as necessary and please let me know if I'm missing any details about these tubes.



OK... here's the list in (roughly) alphabetical order. If I seem to, or just flat out say, that I prefer one tube over another, it's an over-generalization. The truth is that I've had good luck with ALL of these tubes, in the right amp for them. None of them *always* work, regardless of the amp. Sure, I have my favorites, but it's not my intention to give the impression that any one is better than any other. Just my opinions and in my amps (with my cabs, guitars, fingers, etc.).

1. Electro-Harmonix 12AX7EH Gold Pin - From what I can tell, this is the same tube as the standard pin 12AX7EH. Good amount of gain, not a lot of definition, fairly balanced tone, but the highs can be a little smeared. I've had good luck with these in lower-gain amps like a Fender Champ.

2. Genalex 12AX7/ECC83/B759 Gold Pin - While the plate's not short, it's not as long as some of the other long plate tubes. Average gain, good definition, pretty balanced tone. The mids are a little weird. They either seem to be exactly what the amp needs or exactly what it doesn't. It's a good tube, no doubt, but doesn't quite live up to the hype (and the price). Still, though, it's a great tube and is one of my favorites.

3. Genalex 12AX7/ECC83 Standard - I've heard that these are the same as the next generation Chinese, e.g. Ruby 12AX7 AC7 HG+. Sounds like a modern Chinese, in other words, pretty good. Good gain, decent clarity, wide tonal response with thick mids, almost congested in some amps.

4. JJ 12AX7/ECC83S Gold Pin - This seems identical to the standard pin JJ 12AX7/ECC83S. I'll admit, I'm not a big fan of this one. It's not bad and used to be one of the best available. Compared to some others, it just seems a little lifeless and bland in everything I've tried in it recently.

5. JJ ECC803S Gold Pin - This also seems identical to the standard pin JJ ECC803S. This one is almost the opposite of the JJ ECC83S. Good gain, but not over the top, warm full tone, good definition. Works well in later stages to smooth things out a bit. Works well in the first stage, in some amps, where you want a solid foundation to start with. Starting to think that there really is something to the "long plates have better tone" thing.

6. Mullard 12AX7/ECC83 - This long plate works really well in some amps, and really doesn't in others. Kind of similar to the Gold Lion 12AX7/ECC83/B759, the Mullard seems a little brighter, neither are harsh. One of my favorites.

7. Mullard CV4004/12AX7 - Not quite as toneful as the 12AX7/ECC83, but still nice. Noticeably more gain, too. Thick mids without as much smearing as the 12AX7EH.

8. Ruby 12AX7 AC5 HG+ - I'm not sure, but I think this may be the same Chinese tube that Mesa is using currently for their SP12AX7. I haven't peeled off the shrink wrap to find out, but the exposed parts look the same and they sound the same. Great gain, bright without being harsh, good separation considering the gain levels. I've had great luck with this tube in several amps and it never sounded bad in anything I've tried it in so far. This one may not always my favorite, it's a great tube all-around.

9. Sovtek 12AX7LPS - Another long plate that really surprised me. I've always heard this one is good in the PI, but it works well in the first stage, too. It's a little smoother than the JJ ECC803S, but otherwise sounds pretty similar.

10. Tung Sol 12AX7/ECC803S Gold Pin - As with some others, this seems to be the same tube as the standard pin version. This is another tube, like the Gold Lion and Mullard, that either works wonders or not at all. In some amps, it was just too dark sounding. In others, it had the perfect amount of upper-mid bite. Another of my favorites.



Here's the list of the ones I don't have... should I be trying these, too?

1. Sovtek 12AX7WA/7025 - I last tried this one about 15 years ago and just wasn't impressed. It may have improved since then, and I know it came stock in some amps. I just don't have any current samples to test.

2. Sovtek 12AX7WB/7025 - I think I tried this around the same time as the 12AX7WA. I remember it being a little different, but I didn't really like it any better. Just don't have any laying around.

3. Sovtek 12AX7WC - This one, I haven't tried. I've seen some good things about it online, when I've seen anything at all. There's not much to go on, bad or good, so I just didn't bother with this one.

4. Svetlana 12AX7SV - This is the one made by New Sensor (not Winged =C=, I don't think they're making any tubes at the moment). I've never tried it and only recently became aware of it.



So... what am I missing?

I've got to admit, all the different brands/types coming out of China these days are confusing to say the least. I'm sure a lot of them are just relabeled, but I've read a few things that suggested there may be two or three factories in China that are manufacturing tubes now. Has anybody made any sense of what's going on over there?

Finally, I'd really like to hear your experiences with these (or other) tubes, too.

I would really like to try the Mullard CV4004. The Ruby 12AX7AC7/Genalex 12AX7 standar pins also interests me.

I agree with the Electro Harmonix being a bit "smeared", but I wouldn't say it's balanced, personally. I'd say it's got a relatively big (and slightly loose) low-end with scooped low-mids and A LOT of high-mids and highs, making it super ice-picky in certain amps. Definitely not my choice with my amps, but I agree, it would shine in a lower-gain design.

I'd say the Tung Sol is comparable. It's kinda scooped (compared to the JJ ECC83S and the Ruby/Shuguang), with a slightly bigger low-end emphasis than the EHX and less high-mid harshness while still maintaining high-end sizzle, making it sound very open.

I personally do like JJ ECC83S's, especially on V1's of modern-sounding scoopy high-gain amps. They've got a nice squishiness to them, with slightly scooped high-mids (making them appear slightly dark) yet with a subtle rasp to the attack, chunky/juicy lower mids, and a slightly restrained low-end that doesn't go super low/deep, yet IMO it makes them sound tight and controlled. I wouldn't fill a whole amp with them, but, like I said, on my amps, they make good V1's to tighten them, as well as smoothing some harshness out. I get why some people don't like them, though. They're definitely not broad or open-sounding like Tung Sols or EHX's. They're focused, squishy, tight, and smooth to my ears.

I agree with your description of the Ruby/Shuguangs. They seem like good wildcard tubes. They work in almost anything. They're kinda balanced to my ears with a slight hint of high-mid grittiness/grind (without going to the extreme like EHX's) that makes them sound great oh high-gain designs. I like these in tone-stack positions because they seem the most neutral. I go back and forth between JJ's and these on V1's of my amps. These are a tad broader-sounding with more low-end and slightly less low-mid emphasis than JJ's, but these have this cool gritty/angry high-mid voicing that makes them sound pretty cool IMO.

JMO.

Good infos, keep them coming...

Thanks, Rex Rocker! That's exactly the kind of info I was hoping to get.

What I'd like to end up with is something like a general guide. I can only try these tubes in the amps I have, and since tubes react differently to different circuits, I can only have a limited view. With others sharing their experience, the general characteristics of these tubes becomes better defined. That way, if someone comes across an amp that sounds good, but say needs a little more high-end, or maybe needs to be smoothed out a little, etc., etc., instead of having to try 10-15 different tubes in each of 3+ positions, there could be a general starting point and a general map of where to go from there.

I was likely too harsh on the JJ ECC83S, too. I have these in several amps and have gotten good results from them. They used to be my tube of choice, but there are so many good options now that I'm biased (bad pun) away from them only because I'm so familiar with them.

You make a great point, too, about not wanting to fill an amp with them. I think the same could be said for any of these tubes. I started down this road trying to find the best combination of tubes for an Uber that I picked up last year. I talked to a lot of people about it, read a lot of threads in many forums, and ended up not just with a great set of tubes, but a renewed appreciation for what a little experimentation can bring. So, I started doing the same to a couple of other amps. I realized that, while there are a lot of opinions on this, most seem to be from the perspective of a single amp, or a single tube. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of info out there about how these tubes compare to each other. Which is why I started this thread.

Thanks again for your input!

Thanks, Alex_S! I know all of this is just a collection of opinions on a very subjective subject, but I think that just makes things even more interesting.

I tend to stick with standard Chinese 12ax7's, with some JJ, and or tung-sol here and there. If I have a dark amp that gets buried in a mix, a EH 12ax7 in V1 almost always fixes that.

I got obsessed with preamp tubes at one point, and have had just about everything under the sun. I've settled with the above on most everything now.

Thanks, CrazyNuts! I think those Chinese tubes, specifically the Ruby AC5 HG+, are as close as anything I've tried to a "wildcard" tube, especially for high gain.

If you like the Tung Sol, I think you'd like the Mullard 12AX7, too. They're close, but not quite the same, the Mullard having a more present midrange. I'd like to try the Mullard CV4004 in more amps, just haven't gotten there, yet. They're supposedly less microphonic for use in high gain stages, but to my ears, there's a trade off between that and slightly better tone in the Mullard 12AX7. Then again, I've only tried the CV4004 in two amps, so far.

And yeah, this isn't the first time I've gotten obsessed with tubes... LOL! The last time was before Groove Tubes sold out to Fender, though, so I thought it might be time to revisit this.

How would you say the Mullard CV4004 and the Genalex standard compare? Are they similar at all? And how would you say they compare to others like the Tung Sols, Ruby C5's, etc.?

I read on here actually about the Shuguang Silver Dragons which are a 12AX7B tube with a shiny silver cap. I have been using the Ruby select 12AX7s exclusively in my Diezel and grabbed 10 of those Bs for $50 brand new. They tested stronger on my tester than the Rubys and sound a bit better. From what I understand some of the Rubys are actually Shuguang and some are JJs depending on what type it is but for the price you cant go wrong! There are so many of the same tube that are rebranded with a different name that it gets very confusing. I would definitely check out the 12AX7B if you get a chance though.

Im digging the TAD 12ax7 premium selected. Also, the TAD 7025.

Rex Rocker":l96dow9g said:

How would you say the Mullard CV4004 and the Genalex standard compare? Are they similar at all? And how would you say they compare to others like the Tung Sols, Ruby C5's, etc.?

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Well, in the amps I've tried them in so far, I thought the CV4004 and the Genalex standard sounded pretty similar. I thought the CV4004 was a little brighter, but not by much. So far, I've preferred the CV4004, not that the Genalex is a bad tube in any way. I doubt I could tell them apart in a blind test.

The Tung Sols seem to be slightly lower gain, but a much bigger sound, more bass, more but still smooth treble, and less mids. I like these to smooth out a harsh gain channel and they're good in some clean channels.

The Ruby C5s seem to be slightly higher gain and just bigger sounding. They can be too much in some amps, in which case I might try a either of the Mullards or Genalexs. For a high gain screamer, the C5s are hard to beat, IMHO.

phil b":zvbkf4ec said:

I read on here actually about the Shuguang Silver Dragons which are a 12AX7B tube with a shiny silver cap.

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Where did you find the Silver Dragons? I'd heard about those, but didn't see them from any of my usual sources. Definitely sounds like something I'd like to check out!

From what I've heard, you're right that some of the Rubys are Shuguang and some are JJs.

Emg77":1wroyi68 said:

Im digging the TAD 12ax7 premium selected. Also, the TAD 7025.

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I was wondering if the TAD 12AX7 Premium were Chinese 9th, so more or less the same as the Ruby C5 HG+, the difference being in how TAD grades them vs. how Ruby grades them. Do you know if they are the same tubes, or something different? In any case, I know TAD sells great tubes.

I was also wondering if the TAD 7025 Premiums were also Chinese 9ths, maybe the difference between the Ruby C5 HG and the C5 HG+. However, the TAD 7025 Premium Mullard Style seem to be something else. I need to take another look at these. Do you know if they're Shuguang made? They don't look like JJs, but could be New Sensors. I'll probably pick one up just to compare.

Thanks for your suggestions!!

ChurchHill":wkcsfsw6 said:

Rex Rocker":wkcsfsw6 said:

How would you say the Mullard CV4004 and the Genalex standard compare? Are they similar at all? And how would you say they compare to others like the Tung Sols, Ruby C5's, etc.?

Click to expand...

Well, in the amps I've tried them in so far, I thought the CV4004 and the Genalex standard sounded pretty similar. I thought the CV4004 was a little brighter, but not by much. So far, I've preferred the CV4004, not that the Genalex is a bad tube in any way. I doubt I could tell them apart in a blind test.

The Tung Sols seem to be slightly lower gain, but a much bigger sound, more bass, more but still smooth treble, and less mids. I like these to smooth out a harsh gain channel and they're good in some clean channels.

The Ruby C5s seem to be slightly higher gain and just bigger sounding. They can be too much in some amps, in which case I might try a either of the Mullards or Genalexs. For a high gain screamer, the C5s are hard to beat, IMHO.

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Excellent! Thank you. I'm even more curious about the Genalex and the Mullard now. I've been meaning to find something that's a bit more lively/broader/thicker than the JJ ECC83S, but with a similar kind of emphasis on the mids. I'll have to order a couple of these to try out.

ChurchHill":wkcsfsw6 said:

phil b":wkcsfsw6 said:

I read on here actually about the Shuguang Silver Dragons which are a 12AX7B tube with a shiny silver cap.

Click to expand...

Where did you find the Silver Dragons? I'd heard about those, but didn't see them from any of my usual sources. Definitely sounds like something I'd like to check out!

From what I've heard, you're right that some of the Rubys are Shuguang and some are JJs.

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http://www.dougstubes.com/ruby-7025-ss-hg.html

ChurchHill":budwnzwh said:

Emg77":budwnzwh said:

Im digging the TAD 12ax7 premium selected. Also, the TAD 7025.

Click to expand...

I was wondering if the TAD 12AX7 Premium were Chinese 9th, so more or less the same as the Ruby C5 HG+, the difference being in how TAD grades them vs. how Ruby grades them. Do you know if they are the same tubes, or something different? In any case, I know TAD sells great tubes.

I was also wondering if the TAD 7025 Premiums were also Chinese 9ths, maybe the difference between the Ruby C5 HG and the C5 HG+. However, the TAD 7025 Premium Mullard Style seem to be something else. I need to take another look at these. Do you know if they're Shuguang made? They don't look like JJs, but could be New Sensors. I'll probably pick one up just to compare.

Thanks for your suggestions!!

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The Ruby 12AX7C5HG & HG+ are the same tubes... just more stringent selection process for the HG+. More gain, less noise supposedly. No a fan of the current "Mullard" CV4004 either... nothing like the OG NOS real deal UK tubes. Not bright or articulate enough.

I'm curious about the TAD 7025WA too. It looks very similar (if not identical) to many other Chinese 12AX7s variants... triple mica spacers, single halo getter... etc. Supposedly lower noise... and warm tone... which makes me cautious as warm often equates to dark and muddy... blanket over the speakers tone ie JJ tubes.

As far as JJ preamp tubes... I hate them. All of them. Dark, muddy, distant, muffled. No good. Bad, bad, bad.

I do like Tung Sol and Ruby 12AX7C5HG preamp tubes.

Wizard of Ozz":893arj4z said:

I'm curious about the TAD 7025WA too. It looks very similar (if not identical) to many other Chinese 12AX7s variants... triple mica spacers, single halo getter... etc. Supposedly lower noise... and warm tone... which makes me cautious as warm often equates to dark and muddy... blanket over the speakers tone ie JJ tubes.

Click to expand...

Yep, HG and HG+ are definitely the same, just a more stringent selection process. Just based on looks, I could believe that the TAD 7025 are just a "higher grade" of their 12AX7, but I haven't had the chance to compare them in person.

Absolutely agree that they're nowhere near as good as real deal NOS. I have NOS Mullards in several of my older Marshalls. I just can't see investing that much money (at current prices) to put them in everything, though. I have a good reserve that should last my old amps for a long time.

I really was surprised by the JJ ECC803. Maybe I just got a good one, but it was nothing like what I expected it to be, and nothing like their ECC83. I'd originally thought that the newer JJ ECC83s just weren't as good as they were 10-15 years ago, but I still had a few from back then and, nope, same sound. I used to think they were good, but now, well, not so much.

I think I'm going to pick up some of those TAD variants and give them a day in court, too. Thanks for letting me know what you think!!

OK, here's a breakdown of current TAD tubes. Any assumptions I've made are purely based on the appearance of the tube. Please let me know if any of this is incorrect, OK? Let me know which ones might be worth a shot. If you have any experience with these, please let me know that, too. And, of course, if I've missed anything, just let me know that, too.

Sorted by part number.

1. RT001 - 12AX7A-C / ECC83 TAD Premium Selected
This looks like a standard Chinese 9th that's been through TAD's Premium selection process.

2. RT003 - ECC83-Cz TAD Premium Selected
Almost certainly a JJ ECC83S that's been hand picked by TAD.

3. RT006 - 12AX7WA-R TAD Premium Selected
I'm thinking this may be a selected New Sensor 12AX7WA.

4. RT008 - ECC83 WA TAD Premium Selected
I'm not sure about this one. I've heard that TAD works directly with the Chinese factories to develop specific models. Maybe this is one of them. Something I'd like to investigate.

5. RT010 - 7025 HIGHGRADE TAD Premium Selected
I think this is a high grade selection of their RT001, which I think is a Chinese 9th. I might compare this to a Ruby AC5 HG+ and the RT001 to a Ruby AC5 HG.

6. RT011-HG - 7025 S HIGHGRADE Selected -Mullard style
RT011 - 7025 S Premium Selected -Mullard style
I think this is two grades of the same tube, but I have no idea which tube it is. I think these may be another tube that's unique to TAD. Definitely something I want to check out.

7. RT30 - 7025/E83CC HIGHGRADE Premium Selected
Pretty sure this is the highest grade of their RT003, which I think is a JJ ECC83S.

8. RT033 - ECC803 S TAD Premium Selected
I think this is a selection of JJ ECC803.

9. RT080 - 7025 WA TAD HIGHGRADE Premium Selected
This looks very similar to their RT008, which could be a TAD-exclusive design Chinese. Either or both should be worth taking a look at.



So, here are the ones I'm interested in. I probably won't order until the weekend (I've got a work trip coming up in a few days). Let me know if there's something else I should try, too, OK?
1. RT011-HG - 7025 S HIGHGRADE Selected -Mullard style
2. RT080 - 7025 WA TAD HIGHGRADE Premium Selected

I'll probably pick up a couple Sovtek 12AX7WA, 12AX7WB, and 12AX7WC, too.

I'd love to try some of those Shuguang Silver Dragons, too. Sorry, Rex Rocker, I just completely missed your reply earlier. I'll order some of those from Doug's. Thank you for letting me know!

Had a thought... if I was going to do a comparison video, which amp(s) do you think would be good?

My first thought would be something simple, like a '65 Blackface Fender Champ. There's not a lot to that circuit, so it might be a good platform for comparisons. However, it wouldn't really show the high gain capabilities well. What would be a good platform for that? Uber? Herbert? 20th Shiva? JCM900 Mk.III? JMP 2203? I think I'd lean toward the 2203 because it's still a pretty simple circuit, but can get pretty gainy. I'd be concerned that some of the really high gain amps have so many tubes, that just changing V1, the changes would get somewhat covered up by the rest of the circuit.

What say you? Would this be something worth pursuing? Anyway... just a thought.

If you do a comparison video, a 2203 would be a good plataform to showcase the differences, IMO.

BTW, I ordered a Ruby 12AX7AC7 HG+, a Mullard CV4004, and a Sovtek 12AX7WC to try out. They'll be here in a couple of weeks (friggin' international shipping). I'll let you know how I feel they compare to the usual suspects once they get here. I'm hoping to find something a bit bigger and a bit less raspy-sounding than the JJ ECC83S, but with a similar kind of mid-focus.

Just to help sort it out... the TAD 7025WA is the same Chinese tube as the Ruby 7025SS.


For a comparison the Herbert and a 2203 would work great.