flavours of rack delay and reverb?

i'm looking to assemble my first rack system over the next few months, which will consist exclusively of effects for use with guitar (and sometimes synths), and am trying to decide on the reverb(s) and delay(s) i'll go with.
i've done a bunch of reading on the various kinds of units available, but all that did was only confuse me more. for reverbs, i'm mainly considering lexicon, but have also thought about bricasti and ams. for delays, i'm looking at a pair of pcm42's and a 2290. i also have an sdd-3000.
in the lexicon range, can someone talk me through the sonic differences between the pcm 60, 70, 80, 81, 90, 91? my understanding is that the 60 and 70 are more 'organic', which i'm thinking may be better suited to guitar, and share something with the older 224, while the latter ones may have more of a refined/processed sound. i've also looked at the bricasti m7, but haven't heard enough demos with a guitar to warrant the big price. also have looked at the legendary ams rmx16, but i just don't know enough about it. i think lexicon will be a safe bet for now.
as far as delays go, are the pcm42 and 2290 a solid combo? as mentioned, i also have a korg sdd-3000 which i love, but i'm not sure i'll include it in this rack- i'd like to get a second one and run them together for another project.
what are some other delays you guys recommend checking out? i like the character some of the older rack delays have and generally am not a fan of pristine ones. is there anything that can do a sort of tape or analog type sound, albeit with more control than pedals would give?
i can get a pretty nice tape/analog sound on the sdd-3000 if i set the filters right and add a touch of modulation- i really like that-, but am wondering what else might be out there.
 
Interested in this because I'm slowing building a rack too.

The Chandler Stereo Digital Echo gets good reviews.
 
PCM 60 has no MIDI and was lexicon's first attempt at a single rack solution reverb.

PCM70 is a single rack solution based off of the model 200. From what I was told, it has everything down to the same exact ADCs. It was also Lexicon's first attempt at MIDI. They're noisy as all getout and have bit truncation compared to other modern digital effects. Ver 2.2 is what you want in these, Ver 3 fixed a lot of MIDI issues but removed a lot of the decent sounds for useless effects. If you go after a PCM70, your best bet would be to learn how to download sysex files and load them into registers to have version 2.2 reverbs on a version 3.0 PCM70. Even then, you cannot do anything about the noise. They sound warm yes, but these carry a lot of baggage. They're difficult to navigate within the user menu system. They're also getting old and reliability becomes a bit of a concern. Personally I looked at a PCM70 but the risk of running one in a rack these days just didn't match up when looking at all of the extra baggage they carry.

PCM80 is 18 bit, PCM81 is 24 bit. PCM81 has the PCM80's optional expansion card for chorus effects built in. PCM80 and PCM81 can both do delays and obviously reverbs. Lexicon updated the front panel navigation to have two knobs to make it easier to get around compared to the PCM70. These still have the classic lexicon sound that they're known for before Lexicon was sold to Harmon Kardon. You can still find a lot of the classic reverb algorithms. The 80 and 81 are based on the 224/224XL.

From what I know, the 90 and 91 are just reverb processors and nothing more. I don't know much more about these, other than I was always told that if you're going to consider getting a 90 or 91, just to go with a model 300.

The 2290 I find to be thin sounding and shrill. I don't like it at all actually, and think the offerings of today from Eventide or Strymon absolutely blow it out of the water. For delays, it's hard to beat the korg 8000 that psychodave is selling in the classifieds at the moment. For me, I'm using a damage control timeline pedal and adding a pedal shelf.
 
SpiderWars":3p99c3fi said:
Interested in this because I'm slowing building a rack too.

The Chandler Stereo Digital Echo gets good reviews.
I have one for sale on reverb, PM me if your interested :thumbsup:
 
Agree with the PCM81 recommendation. Great sounding reverbs and delays.

I'll add an Eventide Eclipse. More guitar oriented that other Eventide offerings (and less costly), great delays, great reverbs, great effects. Of course, there's the H3000 through H9000 line of Ultra-Harmonizers. The H3000 has been a mainstay of guitar racks since its introduction in the late 80s. The H8000 and H9000 may be a little over-the-top for guitar rigs, but, hey, nothing wrong with that, either. They all sound incredible.

For older units, you might look at the SRV330 and the SDE330 from Roland or various incarnations of the SPX line from Yamaha.
 
glpg80":1tw64t59 said:
PCM 60 has no MIDI and was lexicon's first attempt at a single rack solution reverb.

PCM70 is a single rack solution based off of the model 200. From what I was told, it has everything down to the same exact ADCs. It was also Lexicon's first attempt at MIDI. They're noisy as all getout and have bit truncation compared to other modern digital effects. Ver 2.2 is what you want in these, Ver 3 fixed a lot of MIDI issues but removed a lot of the decent sounds for useless effects. If you go after a PCM70, your best bet would be to learn how to download sysex files and load them into registers to have version 2.2 reverbs on a version 3.0 PCM70. Even then, you cannot do anything about the noise. They sound warm yes, but these carry a lot of baggage. They're difficult to navigate within the user menu system. They're also getting old and reliability becomes a bit of a concern. Personally I looked at a PCM70 but the risk of running one in a rack these days just didn't match up when looking at all of the extra baggage they carry.

PCM80 is 18 bit, PCM81 is 24 bit. PCM81 has the PCM80's optional expansion card for chorus effects built in. PCM80 and PCM81 can both do delays and obviously reverbs. Lexicon updated the front panel navigation to have two knobs to make it easier to get around compared to the PCM70. These still have the classic lexicon sound that they're known for before Lexicon was sold to Harmon Kardon. You can still find a lot of the classic reverb algorithms. The 80 and 81 are based on the 224/224XL.

From what I know, the 90 and 91 are just reverb processors and nothing more. I don't know much more about these, other than I was always told that if you're going to consider getting a 90 or 91, just to go with a model 300.

The 2290 I find to be thin sounding and shrill. I don't like it at all actually, and think the offerings of today from Eventide or Strymon absolutely blow it out of the water. For delays, it's hard to beat the korg 8000 that psychodave is selling in the classifieds at the moment. For me, I'm using a damage control timeline pedal and adding a pedal shelf.

I've got 3 PCM 70s that I've been using in a studio and in a guitar rack for years. They definitely are not noisy. :confused:
 
I have a rack with the following units:

Eventide H3000
Yamaha SPX90
2 x SDE3000s
KORG DL8000r
Lexicon PCM91

It's wired with the H3000 and SPX in a parallel pair feeding the SDEs, Korg and PCM in parallel via a line mixer. Refer signature pic below.

I generally run delay/verb in parallel, most often fed with a dry signal from the line mixer. Occasionally I'll run the H3000 or the SPX to thicken the sound for a huge wall of sound. But most I'll play with the delay/verb combination.

To achieve this, I can either run the H3000 and SPX90 in parallel together. Alternately the SDEs or KORG in parallel with PCM.

80% of the time I'll use the Korg DL8000r and the PCM91. It's an absolutely stunning combination. The H3000 has some great delays and for the money, the SPX is a great unt. But I mainly use the SPX for the Zakk Symphonic patch.

Having said that, IMO you simply can't beat the Korg DL800r for delays and a PCM (either 80/81 or 90/91) for reverbs. The PCM60 and 70 are killer, but only mono in, so if you're feeding it a stereo signal you won't be able to use it properly, which was the case for me. Hence I got the PCM91.

I would highly recommend trying the Korg DL8000r for delays. Yes, 2 x PCM42s would be stunning, but they are getting very expensive and unreliable, like the 2290s.

BTW - the SDE3000s are incredible delays, but one of mine is glitching, hence I use the Korg more. I'll buy another if I can at the right price, they sound killer too.

Hope this helps.
 
paulyc":1rwbmflj said:
No, you said 2 pcm 42s would be stunning, would pcm 41s be equally stunning ?

I believe the limiter is 2 stage on the input of the 42, meaning you can slam the front end (ala Michael Wagner) which you cant do with the 41. 42 also has an led display. Years ago I got a 41 and then a 42. Sold the 41 and still own the 42. The 42 sounded warmer to my ears than the 41, and the display makes changing delay times much faster on the fly.
 
paulyc":236b3hoq said:
No, you said 2 pcm 42s would be stunning, would pcm 41s be equally stunning ?

Can't commend as I've only ever "played" a PCM42 via the KORG presets, which are incredible (I can only imagine the real thing would be better). No PCM41 presets on the KORG.
 

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I've been researching this a bit more and am certain I'll be going for a couple PCM 42's, a 2290, PCM 81 and perhaps a second SDD-3000, but the Lexicon's and 2290 have me kind of worried insofar as being left in the dark if anything goes wrong. I've heard horror stories about these things pretty much being expensive paperweights if/when things go downhill. Is there a reputable 2290 and Lexicon tech?
 
Yes and yes - there are techs within the nation that specialize in eventide, tc electronic, and lexicon vintage gear. A vast majority of parts for these are still available if you know what you're doing. I just repaired my PCM 81 which had a gain/noise adjustment problem. Was because of a bad dual 10k stereo input potentiometer from what I found. I was able to do some research on what manufacturers lexicon used back in the UK during 1996, found a replacement part from this manufacturer, and was back in business in less than a day.

I liked the PCM 81 specifically for repairs to be honest - I find the power supplies are easily replaceable and the units fairly easy to work on. The challenge however, is that these and many others you listed which are old analog units have TTL logic chips proprietary to the manufacturers. If someone doesn't practice absolute textbook static protection when repairing them and fries one of those proprietary TTL logic chips, it's immediately a paperweight. Done. Value is immediately reduced to parts only for another working unit (or purchase a broken unit in hopes you can rob it of the parts).

So yes you're not wrong - vintage gear takes on risks during repair, but there are companies that specialize in this and may have a stock of parts which are otherwise not for sale or replacement.
 
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