Pedals vs. Racks in 2018

white buffalo

white buffalo

Member
Long have I been intrigued by rack gear, ultimately not having taken the plunge after all these years because it's, frankly, very intimidating to me. I want all the control and of course the sound quality a rack unit provides, but also realize it's hard to justify given the space it takes up (and subsequently the weigh), as well as the added headache of setting it all up. But despite that, I really do still want to go the rack route this year, having my eyes locked on some cool classic pieces: H3000 D/SE, PCM 42, PCM 81, 2290, Cs5/618, etc. I don't want to go crazy, I just want to get together a few nice choice venerable classic pieces. I also would like to have one or two pedal drawers in the rack and control everything out front via something like an RS-10- not a fan of the newer ones with the displays.

Anyways, what I'm wondering is this... in 2018 is there any legitimate argument for going the rack route? DSP power in digital effects today is so vast, with the entire array of rack effects available to us in the stompbox format. So why bother? Are the converters the main benefit?

Personally, I've been through several pedal reverbs over the past decade-- including the "big boys" like the H9, BigSky, etc.--, but kept coming back to the simple Neunaber WET because that algorithm just appeals to me the most. I find it to sound very lush and organic, melding beautifully with the core tone. The BigSky, H9 and Meris Mercury 7 I found all to impart a very synthetic sheen over top of my signal, never fully melding with it. Would something like a PCM 70/80/81/90/91/92 not suffer this same problem? Another sort of "in-between" reverb option I've been considering is the OTO BAM: http://www.otomachines.com/portfolio/bam/ It's supposedly heavily influenced by late 70's/early 80's rack units, such as AMS, EMT, Lexicon, etc., even going so far as to pay attention to the fact that a lot of them derived their famous character from the actual hardware, not just the algorithms. I wonder how it'd stack up to some of the others. I'm also intrigued by the Bricasti M7 and a couple others, but there's just no demos/clips whatsoever with them used with electric guitar- would it be complete overkill and using it in a context it wasn't optimized for? I know I'm all over the place, going from $300-500 reverb pedals to $4k reverb units, but I'm just trying to understand the bonafide benefits of the latter.

Re: delays, I've got an old SDD-3000 which I absolutely adore and will be sending to Slemmons for service soon. The filter section on it is absolutely brilliant, making it possible to dial in almost anything, from pristine digital cleans to analogue-like warmth. Not to mention the modulation is just beautiful, plus it features that legendary preamp, which for a mainly single channel, non-master, guy like me is amazing boosting up your amps front end. It's the only rack unit I've got now and I honestly prefer it to any digital delay I've got- it just has such an amazing character. I just really hate how awkward it is to incorporate to my guitar rig, but am hoping integration might be simpler with a proper rack setup, as opposed to having it just sit on top of my amp, running cables from my board into it, from it out to the board, then from the board out to the amp...
I'm looking to potentially get a PCM 42 for it's more experimental abilities, as well as a 2290 for it's classic pristine sound and modulation. But then I've got a Montreal Assembly Count To Five and 856 For Zellersasn, both of which remind me of pedal versions of a PCM 42, PrimeTime and more. So I find myself wondering, again, if there's a point going the rack route. Granted, I'm talking about the more esoteric functions of the 42 and PrimeTime, not straight ahead delays seeing as the Montreal Assembly pedals don't do that. Regardless, would be curious to hear your takes on the 42 and 2290.

The H3000 S/DE is special, I know. Is there anything that nails what it does in the pedal domain? I'm not sure, I haven't really searched it out much, outside of the H9, which I couldn't wait to get rid of due to the interface- I refuse to use an iPhone to control my pedals/effects.

And the Cs5/TSC-618 I think are also probably special and unique to the rack world. I'm yet to hear an emulation that nails it... but objectively speaking, am I splitting hairs here, getting to obsessed with sounds that are far too nuanced for anyone, outside of a select few, to appreciate?

Sorry for the long-winding post, I'm just really having a hard time deciding whether to just take the plunge and learn as I go, or if I should just stick with pedals. Racks are, again, very intimidating to me and seem to require a certain level of cognitive ability which I lack. It seems like rock science, quite frankly, and I was never the academic type. Is it still worth it in 2018 to go rack for an electric guitar setup?
 
Quick answer Yes if you want that sound than you gotta have that gear. There is something more that just the processing power but also the power supplies in all those rack pieces that contribute to the sound and feel. Pedals can get pretty close but not the same.

The big down side is all the extra stuff, rack, controller, mixer, matrix, etc... You can get a Sound Sculpture to do all that in one box but it will cost you. And of course the size, even a 12-16sp rack on wheels is gonna be tough to deal with ..

But you only live once :rock:
 
mixn4him":10w7786t said:
Quick answer Yes if you want that sound than you gotta have that gear. There is something more that just the processing power but also the power supplies in all those rack pieces that contribute to the sound and feel. Pedals can get pretty close but not the same.

The big down side is all the extra stuff, rack, controller, mixer, matrix, etc... You can get a Sound Sculpture to do all that in one box but it will cost you. And of course the size, even a 12-16sp rack on wheels is gonna be tough to deal with ..

But you only live once :rock:
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Yeah, the big thing keeping me from it is all the extra stuff around it... the size and weight are the biggest, not to mention all routing and what not that have to be done. With that in mind, would you really still say it's worth getting into? Do the sonic benefits really outweigh those negatives by so much or is it more nuanced? Wish I had a friend with some rack gear so I could hear it for myself first time. If anyone is in Toronto...
 
Well, I'm a little biased... racks are big, heavy, and expensive... and absolutely worth it, to me at least.

A lot of this older gear used digital processing in a completely different way. Instead of hitting the converters first, almost all of the signal processing was still in the analog domain. The signal was only digital when it needed to be, such as the delayed signal, then went right back to analog. Of course, this is a generality and not all old processors work like that. Your SDE-3000 does, though, and may be part of why you like it so much. I have noticed that some pedals are getting back to this type of processing in the last few years. I think that's good.

One other thing is that, you're right. Most people would not notice, know, or even care about the sometimes subtle differences. Mixn4him is right, too, though... if you want those sounds, that gear is the only way to get it. I think, if you're happy with your sound, then you're going to play better, and people will notice that. If the differences are worth it to you, then it's worth doing. I can't say what works best for anyone else, but for me, having a huge rack is worth it.
 
I’ve run both setups. There is something special about the rack sound. It is very lush, and you can get those studio tones. I ran a rack for several years, and I refuse to get rid of mine. With that said, I mainly use delay, so I decided that the Strymon TimeLine worked just as well for the flexibility that I wanted. Pedal setup have become a lot closer to rack quality in the past five years.
 
Many years ago when I was gigging, pedals were easier and lighter. Plus the bars and stages I was on didn't even have room for the drummer to run his full kit, let alone a monster rack, amp, cabs, etc.

However if you have the space to run a rack rig and get some spread to the sound width wise for added benefit of stereo effects, there's just no contest which is going to sound bigger and more lively in the mix. Racks are heavy, costly, and honestly the gear is requiring me to go through every one of them for a re-vamp. I had to repair my PCM81 and I'm having to re-cap my ADA effects unit and make an embedded circuit board for it to recall settings because MIDI wasn't even a thing back then.

However when done correctly, the big rack sound from having analog or digital processing at the push of a button for guitar leaves no rock unturned for inspiration. There's a long list of songs that I want to learn using the gear and I'll need every inch of it to cop the tones to help get there. I played live for many years without it and although I managed, it wasn't exactly easy having to learn rhythm and guitar leads differently because I didn't have that harmonizer pedal, or we had to play a backing track live because I couldn't mimic that intro or outro to a particular song.

I chose rack because of experience using pedals and during band practices. It takes time to piece one together because you have to first know what you want the gear to do and then program everything accordingly to make it happen. It takes more planning than a simple pedal swap and it's more costly in the long run to change out gear in a rack compared to pedals which doesn't make it a wise platform for a flipper.

I have a few vintage pieces in mine (2240, PCM81, ADA 2FX, etc.) but I'm also running a few pedals as well to make life easier (EVH flanger, EVH phase 90, Boost, 535Q, etc).

Racks do weigh a lot as well. I'm splitting mine up into two 8x space racks to make it easier to manage.

Is it for everyone? No. Is it right for all gigs? No. Is it warranted in 2018? It's getting harder to find the vintage gear that's reliable or gear that doesn't need immediate TLC, but that doesn't make it impossible or not worth the investment, just my 0.02 :)
 
I use rack preamps/power amp when playing live but I use pedals for effects. I don't feel like having rack fx units THEN have a midi controller that's almost the size of my entire pedalboard.
 
To me, it isn't a 'this vs that' thing at all. They're tools. My big rig is a combination of pedals and rack gear, digital and analog and each thing was chosen for a specific sound or range of sounds. Getting a really good workable tone out of pedals is VERY doable nowadays, but it's not the same.
 
I went rack to make it easier for me while playing. I want to focus on the performance and the tap dance of pedals takes me out of it. I can just hit one button for sound changes and continue on my way.

My rack is fairly simple, as are my sounds, so YMMV.
 
I have a rack I rarely use. I sold all the digital stuff but one rack effect over a decade ago. I just prefer the sound of analog most of the time.
 
I have both. When I was playing out, it was easier for me to bring the rack and setup from there. It didn't take long, as I tucked all of my long cables in the rack case, so that I just pulled the covers and ran the cable to the front of the stage and plugged in my midi controller. With that said, as the years have gone by, there is something that foot (analog) pedals give you that rack gear doesn't. In my experience, they both have their place. For most gigging musicians, a pedal board probably is the best solution.
 
if there was stuff like the Helix, KPA or AX8 around back in the 70s and 80s I highly doubt the average joe without roadies would haul around a huge rack to most gigs.
 
I ran a rack setup for years with a mix of racked effects and pedals running through the GCX switching system. For me it was the best of both worlds in terms of sound, and ease of setup. But frankly after years of load in/load out it just became back breaking. Head, cab or cabs, pedal board, rack, guitar cases. I figured if I could get the rack/pedal board down to one that would eliminate one more piece of gear. And I've been chasing a new setup since. I'll eventually get the switcher and delay I like but at this point I wished I had just left it alone lol.
 
I think the answer lies in how/where you use these tones you're chasing. It doesn't sound like you play a lot of shows, so by all means.."rack out"! But if you're gigging regularly in "regular" venues...than a rack's size & ergonomics just aren't worth the stage/van space for these subtle nuances you describe. (of course, if' you're touring with a crew, that's another story...I'm referring to club gigs, etc)
As Zachman said above, "they're just tools"...and having the right tools for the job is important.
 
sleewell2":32b5ns5g said:
if there was stuff like the Helix, KPA or AX8 around back in the 70s and 80s I highly doubt the average joe without roadies would haul around a huge rack to most gigs.
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This. My current 'rack rig' is smaller than most heads because it is a 1U power amp and a 2U AxeFx II. And that makes it a monstrosity compared to an Atomic AA12, Helix, or AX8; since it needs a floor board.

The AF2 does more than my entire 6U rack case plus pedal board setup from back in the day and is, to be honest, better sounding. Digital destroyed the rack stuff, not heads. I got the AxeFx2 before the AX8 was even a thing... I might have gone with one of the floor units and a powered cab if I were buying new now.
 
Elric":1xugth0x said:
sleewell2":1xugth0x said:
if there was stuff like the Helix, KPA or AX8 around back in the 70s and 80s I highly doubt the average joe without roadies would haul around a huge rack to most gigs.
Click to expand...

This. My current 'rack rig' is smaller than most heads because it is a 1U power amp and a 2U AxeFx II. And that makes it a monstrosity compared to an Atomic AA12, Helix, or AX8; since it needs a floor board.

The AF2 does more than my entire 6U rack case plus pedal board setup from back in the day and is, to be honest, better sounding. Digital destroyed the rack stuff, not heads. I got the AxeFx2 before the AX8 was even a thing... I might have gone with one of the floor units and a powered cab if I were buying new now.
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Yeah, I was gonna come in singing the praises of racks, but what he's asking about is far different beast. For a bit I ran a tube amp into a 4u rack, which had a power conditioner, my wireless, some pedals, and a G-Major. I greatly preferred it to the pedalboard I built for one tour then dropped. I hate running cables back and forth all over the stage, I found that not all stages had power up front, so I had to keep it off to the side, making it mostly not usable.

Nowadays, I have an 8u rack, with a power conditioner, wireless, Kemper, and power amp, and since I've downsized to the ISP Stealth, I don't even really need that. In these scenarios, I'd heartily recommend a rack. But going all-in with all these different rack units? I can't really justify that unless you're playing decent sized venues, because a rack as big as the OP is asking for would be a PITA to haul. Shit, my Kemper rack with a tube power amp was a pain, and it wasn't shit compared to high-end touring racks.
 
Whatever works for you and gets you the tones you want.

Having said that, I haven't seen a guitar rig with a rack out in the wild for over 25+ years.
 
Badronald":29bpz0je said:
Whatever works for you and gets you the tones you want.

Having said that, I haven't seen a guitar rig with a rack out in the wild for over 25+ years.
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For the typical club gig, I didn't haul around the big rig-- for those sorts of gigs-- I use/used other more appropriate gear. When doing festivals and concerts, and session gigs I used my BIG stuff a LOT. :thumbsup:
 
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