Help needed with Friedman Runt 20 FX loop issue.

I just picked up a Runt 20 and couldn't be happier with how it sounds. Fantastic sounding amp. I'm having a bit of a problem with the FX loop though. Whenever I turn on or off a pedal that's in the loop, I get a loud popping noise.

What's strange is that I have one pedal that doesn't pop and is completely quiet. It's a TC Hall Of Fame Mini. Every other pedal I've tried pops. I've tried each pedal by itself in the loop with no other pedals even connected, still same thing. I even tried a TC Spark and it pops too. I've tried a couple of delays and a few boost pedals. The boosts were a Mooer Pure Boost, Hotone LiftUp, TC Spark full sized. All of them do the same thing. But the HOF Mini is quiet as a mouse.... go figure....

I've tried different power supplies including a Visual Sound One Spot, an EHX wall wart, and there's no difference. I've even plugged my amp and pedals into a UPS to try to eliminate any possible issues with the electricity here at home.

I've also tried the trick of letting the amp warm up and turning the pedals on and off several times in a row. It didn't make a difference.

I've also tried several patch cables and instrument cables to try to rule that out as a possibility.

As far as I remember I don't have this issue with any of my other amps.

Any suggestions or ideas?

Other than this minor annoyance, I'm loving the amp and can't wait to take it for its maiden voyage at this coming weekend's gig. Would be nice if I could solve the popping before then.

I will double check mine hold on.

RACKSYSTEMS":1sjrgetk said:

I will double check mine hold on.

Click to expand...

Thanks. There are also a couple of people on the long Runt thread on TGP who mentioned having the same issue with theirs. It seems like the problem is worse with pedals that have hard switches instead of soft switches. The TC HOF Mini has a soft switch and doesn't make the popping noises. But any pedals with hard switches do make a noticeable pop. I'll be gigging it today for the first time and am hoping the pops won't be too loud through the PA.

Also, in addition to this issue, I'm experiencing a hum when using the XLR output into a PA. I emailed you about it but haven't received a reply yet. A couple of other people on the same thread on TGP mentioned that they also had the same hum through the XLR issue and you had been in contact with them and said you'd figure out a solution after NAMM. I'm optimistic! Like I mentioned in my emails, the Runt 20 is possibly the best sounding amp I've ever owned so I'm hoping these are minor issues that can be easily fixed. Hoping that neither the pops nor the hum will be too loud through the PA today and will be manageable until a fix is found.

Thanks again.

Just wanted to update on the issues -- below is a post I made on TGP. Someone mentioned it could be a grounding problem and here was my reply:

"Yep, could very well be a grounding thing.

That said, I'm happy to report that at yesterday's gig, the hum through the XLR was barely noticeable, if at all. We run our PA at reasonable small bar volumes and I didn't notice any hum at those volumes. I'm starting to lean towards the possibility that it's something in my house that was the source of the XLR hum, but I'm still not sure and want to test it a bit more at another venue next weekend. The pedals popping in the FX loop was still happening but it was not loud enough to cause any issues. I did notice that the amp does seem to be a little more sensitive to power-related noise than my other amps, especially on the gain channel....it picks up more hiss and noise than my other amps' dirt channels, even through the front of the amp, but I also found that a big part of that was one pedal in particular, a voice processor (TC Mic Mechanic) that isn't even in my guitar signal chain, but is run off the same One-Spot as my other pedals. When I unplugged the power cable from that pedal, most of the noise and hiss went away. An isolated power supply might fix that. But like tochiro pointed out, his Runt also seems to be pretty sensitive to power related noise (another poster on the TGP thread). It could be a grounding issue or just the nature of the beast for this type of amp circuit.

Either way, after last night's gig I'm no longer concerned about it. If it turns out there's something wrong with it, which I'm beginning to doubt, I'm sure Friedman will take care of it once they're back in action after NAMM. If it's just the nature of the circuit, that's fine too since there were no unmanageable issues at the gig.

After last night's gig, I couldn't be happier with this amp. I've seen others say that the PT and Dirty Shirley might have better, more 3D sounding dirt channels, but I haven't had the pleasure of playing through any of those and I couldn't afford to buy one anyway. What I do know though is that for the Marshall sound I've been looking for for quite a while now, but haven't been able to find even with an actual Marshall, the Runt nails it for me and is the best sounding amp I've played. The clean channel is also incredible. I used a Mooer Hustle Drive through it for my low gain tones and it just killed. And I can't say enough good things about the dirt channel.

One thing I found is that it cuts through a live mix perfectly without being overwhelming much better than my other amps. Not sure what it is in the voicing but whatever it is works very well in a live setting. I ran the dirt channel's volume at about 9:30, just loud enough to use as a stage monitor without blasting the people in front of me, and the clean channel set to match, which ended up being roughly 10:30. I then used the XLR out into the PA to fill the room. No noticeable hum at those volumes, and the sound coming from the PA was very close to the tone coming from my cab.

Bottom line, the amp is a definite winner for me and almost perfect. Built in reverb would have made it perfect but I can live with that since I can just run a pedal in the loop for that."


So in summary, still having the issue with the pedals popping in the FX loop but it's not bad enough to be a problem at gigs. It is still annoying at home though. And I'm still not sure what's causing the hum I'm getting from the XLR at home. I didn't hear it at the gig but the PA wasn't all that loud. Will have to do more testing at a different venue with a different PA next week.

Meantime, if you come up with anything that might help me figure out what's going on, please let me know. Thanks again.

One more update - spent some time at home today doing a lot of troubleshooting. I hooked up several different amps to check the FX loops and XLR hum. Here's what I found.

The amps I used to test for pedals popping in the FX loop were quiet. The Runt was not. Pedals still popping in the Runt's loop but not in the loop of any of the other amps. So there's definitely a problem there. The amps I used to check for the FX loop popping were a Marshall DSL40C, a Roland Blues Cube Artist, a Peavey Classic 20 head, and a Blackstar HT5R.

As for the XLR hum, jury is still out.

::edit:: OK, after more experimenting, I've determined that the hum is definitely an issue. I tried a ground lift adapter in order to eliminate any 60hz hum and it didn't have any effect. I tried several other amps with built in DI outs, a Peavey C20MH, a Blues Cube Artist, and a Blackstar HT5R. The Runt is the only one that hums through the XLR.

So, definitely going to need some help from Friedman with these issues.

Just received a 20 watt head today and can confirm all of the above. Yes, killer tone but hum in XLR and pop in the loop. So far I've only tried an EP Booster in the loop but it pops, more so on "off" than "on". The XLR hum is a deal breaker for me though, I would use this quite a bit at casino gigs, etc. I found that all of these noises are not dependent on amp volume so, if the PA is low and you crank the amp master the noise does not go up. It's definitely some sort of ground issue, I hope they can figure this out. This along with the backwards light on the footswitch (just weird) makes it seem like this amp is a "beta" version with some kinks that should have been worked out. I've been gigging an Egnater amp for years with no issues, also dead quiet and good sounding direct out. Let's hope for a fix soon.

Wonder how many Runts have been sold with this problem. Would hate to see a recall like they do in the auto industry.

markshu":2na4vw6n said:

Just received a 20 watt head today and can confirm all of the above. Yes, killer tone but hum in XLR and pop in the loop. So far I've only tried an EP Booster in the loop but it pops, more so on "off" than "on". The XLR hum is a deal breaker for me though, I would use this quite a bit at casino gigs, etc. I found that all of these noises are not dependent on amp volume so, if the PA is low and you crank the amp master the noise does not go up. It's definitely some sort of ground issue, I hope they can figure this out. This along with the backwards light on the footswitch (just weird) makes it seem like this amp is a "beta" version with some kinks that should have been worked out. I've been gigging an Egnater amp for years with no issues, also dead quiet and good sounding direct out. Let's hope for a fix soon.

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Seems like we're kind of mirroring this particular topic from TGP so I'll paste what I posted there.

Sucks to hear but I'm glad it's not just my imagination and my amp isn't an isolated thing. I emailed the dealer I bought it from but haven't heard back from them yet. The backward footswitch light is a minor annoyance to me and is something I could live with but yeah, it's definitely backward from the industry standard. But that's easy enough to fix for anyone handy with a soldering iron and some instructions on exactly which wires to change. Unfortunately, I'm not all that handy with soldering....but I'm willing to give it a try. Or I can just live with it.

The hum and pops are more of a serious issue though. The XLR hum being the worst part. On mine it's not that loud but for some people's needs it's loud enough that you can't use it for certain gigs and it's also useless for recording.

Have to say, it's definitely frustrating for what for me could be the perfect amp to have these issues that bring it from a 9.5/10 to a 5/10. And in some cases like the casino gigs you mentioned or silent home recording, a 0/10.

This sub-forum will be dead until after NAMM show. I'd call Dave directly if you can't wait until the end of January, but they will help make things right I'm sure. Hope it's an easy fix.

Just to chime in here.

I am having the same issues with my Runt 50 combo.

The XLR hum even exists when the amp is on standby mode....I'm just adding this part because I know the Runt 20 doesn't have a standby switch.

I am confident Dave will get it sorted out.

Good luck at NAMM Dave!

My experience is that hum happening on standby mode is a transformer problem....power transformer in my case. Sent it to Dave, he replaced it on his dime...quiet as can be now. This was a BE100 purchased used, by the way.

Cool. Good to know Dave will take care of this. I think your issue might have been a little different though. The hum that's happening on some of the Runts seems to be coming only through the XLR DI output which is something the BE100 doesn't have. As far as I've been able to tell, it doesn't come through the regular speaker output, just through the XLR.

Sorry guys but that is the Metro/Friedman FX Loop.

I had almost every friedman in the last years and all of them had popping issues with true bypass pedals.
Hang in a relay pedal like Strymon stuff or buffered pedals and your fx loop problems are gone.
. .
Soundwise the best amps on the market but this fx loop problems are annoying...

QOTSA_Lover":2l17boui said:

Sorry guys but that is the Metro/Friedman FX Loop.

I had almost every friedman in the last years and all of them had popping issues with true bypass pedals.
Hang in a relay pedal like Strymon stuff or buffered pedals and your fx loop problems are gone.
. .
Soundwise the best amps on the market but this fx loop problems are annoying...

Click to expand...

The loop use to be a Metro-Friedman when it was tube buffered, but I'm pretty sure it's a different but similar designed loop now thats all Friedman designed solid state. I've never had the popping issues in any of my Friedman's. Played with all bypass types in the loops and never experienced any hum or popping on the DS Mini or BE100 I currently own.

Yes I know. It's a FET loop. But the current Metro loop and friedman loop are quite similiar.
Depends on the pedals. But classic true bypass pedals really do not work really well.

Also the loop is very prone for electrical noise coming from power supplies.
But that's only my experience.

I really get the tonal qualities of the friedman loop design but the loop on my cornford for example is a nobrainer.
On all Friedman amps I really have to mess around with my pedalboard.

A lot of people have this loop issue.
Dont get me wrong. Love the tone of my BE.

QOTSA_Lover":3sawcs20 said:

Sorry guys but that is the Metro/Friedman FX Loop.

I had almost every friedman in the last years and all of them had popping issues with true bypass pedals.
Hang in a relay pedal like Strymon stuff or buffered pedals and your fx loop problems are gone.
. .
Soundwise the best amps on the market but this fx loop problems are annoying...

Click to expand...

I've tried buffered and unbuffered pedals. I also initially thought the problem was only with pedals that had a hard switch instead of a soft switch but now all my pedals are doing it. Buffered, true-bypass, hard switch, soft switch, no difference. All pop. As a matter of fact, some of the buffered ones seem to pop louder than some of the true-bypass ones.

The buffered ones I've tried have been a TC delay, and a couple of Visual Sound pedals, which are known to have an excellent buffer.

And remember, it's not only the pops through the FX loop that's a problem. The hum coming through the XLR is also a problem, and a potentially more serious problem. At least one person is in a situation in which the gigs he plays requires zero stage volume so he needs to use the XLR without a cab but the hum coming from his XLR is a deal breaker for him. It would also likely be an issue for any serious recording. For now, the only recording I do is messing around with Audacity but for any kind of serious recording, or gigs in which there can be no noise coming from the PA when the band isn't playing, this could be a problem.

There are several other people who have reported these exact issues with theirs, and others have said theirs are completely quiet with no hums or pops. Definitely something strange going on.

I made an audio clip of the hum and the pops. Below is a link to the post I made on another forum which has the audio clip. I had to raise the level in Audacity because it didn't come through very loud because I'm running everything at very low volumes but it's a lot louder through a PA turned up to gig levels. It's even louder going directly from the XLR into a powered speaker.

Because the volume is pretty low, you will need to turn your speakers up to make sure you hear it but everything you hear in the clip is exactly what's coming from the amp. The hum in the background is what comes through the XLR and the pops are coming from pedals being turned on and off.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/friedman-runt.1724776/page-52#post-23413875

It's a very long thread so I just linked directly to the post with the audio clip but if you read through the last few pages of it, you'll see that there are several other people reporting the exact same problems with their Runts.

To tame the hiss here is the mod and explanation on Runt 50 and 20.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/cmHKSxPbV3jfx4qc/?mibextid=WC7FNe