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 Post subject: Modal question
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 17, 2013 2:37pm 
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I have decided I really need to learn this stuff better and have encountered some confusion:

1) C Major (Ionian) I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

2) D Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

3) E Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

4) F Lydian IV 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

5) G Mixolydian V 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

6) A Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

7) B Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

My question is this, you can see how in the key of C the 2nd mode is Dorian.

Does this diagram mean that D Dorian is the C major scale with a flat third?

Thats how is appears to me, so if yes...Here is my confusion.

I have also read that each subsequent mode is starting the previous scale only on the next note.

For example C major scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So Dorian should = 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

If this is correct where is the flat third?

Hopefully somone can see how I am looking at this and can help.

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 18, 2013 4:10pm 
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:doh:

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"So before any of of you corn fed,mullet head ,death metal,walmart shopping,ass licking faggots pass judgement on me, you better get your facts straight and your shit in one sock first." Jdub

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 18, 2013 10:08pm 
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the d dorian mode is not a c ionian with flatted 3rd, it is a c ionian play over a chord progression in d minor, playing the d as the root.

the flatted 3rd in the d dorian is a flatted 3rd in relation to d ionian (major scale)


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 20, 2013 9:13am 
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Yea, this is why I have not learned theory and just play what I think sounds good.

So hard for me to follow this lingo. Thanks for the reply.

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"Your cab on the floor becomes one with the earth, thus more resonant."

"So before any of of you corn fed,mullet head ,death metal,walmart shopping,ass licking faggots pass judgement on me, you better get your facts straight and your shit in one sock first." Jdub

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 22, 2013 12:11pm 
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maddnotez wrote:
I have decided I really need to learn this stuff better and have encountered some confusion:

1) C Major (Ionian) I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

2) D Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

3) E Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

4) F Lydian IV 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

5) G Mixolydian V 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

6) A Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

7) B Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

My question is this, you can see how in the key of C the 2nd mode is Dorian.

Does this diagram mean that D Dorian is the C major scale with a flat third?

Thats how is appears to me, so if yes...Here is my confusion.

I have also read that each subsequent mode is starting the previous scale only on the next note.

For example C major scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So Dorian should = 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

If this is correct where is the flat third?

Hopefully somone can see how I am looking at this and can help.



Hey,

Yup the joy of modes - okay the scale degrees quoted are relative to the Major scale in questions so for Dorian you would take the D Major scale and apply a b3 and b7 (so F# -> F & C# -> C) that gives you Dorian. The aim of the modes is to make the major scale in question (D) conform to the tonality of the root scale (C Major), in this case C has no # or b notes so we "move" the notes that don't conform to the expected tonality.

Have a look at these two and (hopefully) this will make sense, scale degrees:

Image

Which means that if we look at the C Ionian (Major), D Ionian (Major) and D Dorian scales on the A string at the bottom of the finger board:

Image

NB: I'm not suggesting this is how you would play these scales; it's just one octave to bring clarity to the example!

Ross


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 29, 2013 5:38pm 
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Does this diagram mean that D Dorian is the C major scale with a flat third?

No, that is not how you should think about it. D Dorian is a D minor scale with a natural 6.

D minor scale : D E F G A Bb C
D Dorian: D E F G A B C D

With modes, you are basically creating scales from the parent scale 'C Major' starting at different notes. The whole idea, is that each mode will work over each chord in the Key of C:

Ex.

CMaj, Dmin, Emin, FMaj, GMaj, Amin, Bdim

Those are the chords in the key of C, if you stack 3rds.


Edit: Feel free to PM me for a further explanation. There are several other things I would memorize that will help clarify the concept of modes.

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 29, 2013 10:18pm 
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In the key of C Major:

1) C Major (Ionian) C D E F G A B C

2) D Dorian D E F G A B C D - D Dorian is a C Major scale, just starts on the D note.

3) E Phrygian E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian is a C Major scale, just starts on the E note.

4) F Lydian F G A B C D E F - F Lydian is a C Major scale, just starts on the F note.

5) G Mixolydian G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian is a C Major scale, just starts on the G note.

6) A Aeolian A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian is a C Major scale, just starts on the A note. (Also the same as an A Minor Scale)

7) B Locrian B C D E F G A B - B Locrian is a C Major scale, just starts on the B note.


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 17, 2013 2:07pm 
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So, this has been running through my mind a lot lately. I stumbled across this video and it really helped. Especially thinking about how each mode relates to the major scale. This guy shows how to actually implement the modes/ a mode into your actual playing. You don't, necessarily, need to learn each mode in each position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVHEPjt ... 2g&index=9


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 19, 2014 4:38pm 
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There's a lot of noise around the modes but it really isn't that complex. They should have been called moods because each mode creates a different mood but it's

ALL JUST THE MAJOR SCALE WITH A DIFFERENT TONE CENTER!

This is how I deal with modes:

Every mode (with a couple of minor exceptions) is just the major scale with a different tone center created by the bass note.

7 modes right?

Forget about locrian, it sounds awful and no one uses it.

6 left

Ionian and aeolian, forget about them, they're just fancy names for what we all know as major and minor.

4 left, 2 minor, 2 major

MINOR
dorian sounds minor
phrygian sounds minor

MAJOR
lydian sounds major
mixolydian sounds major

practical uses:

DORIAN - go down a tone and play major
you're playing in an A minor/blues kinda thing, or you're playing Santana, Evil Ways, easy, just muck around in G major- but try end on A

PHRYGIAN - go down 2 tones and play major
You're rocking out in E minor pentatonic and you want to get mysterious, easy just start mucking around in C major - but try to end on E

LYDIAN - go up a 5th and play that major scale
You're jamming out in E major and you want to get a little Satrianiesque, just start mucking around in B major - but try to end on E

MIXOLYDIAN - go up a 4th and play that major scale
You're vamping on a G7 chord like a funky groove. Start mucking around in C major. Instant mixo! - but try to end on G

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 26, 2014 8:25pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 28, 2014 10:34am 
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My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Wed, Jan 29, 2014 5:09pm 
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LLEADD wrote:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.



LLEADD wrote:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.


Ok this video REALLY helps thank you. But I still feel uneasy and have a few questions.

This makes perfect sense and is the same thing Blitz Described. I get it 100%

However what is confusing is the "theory" talk. The flat thirds and Sharp 4ths ect.

Telling me Dorian mode is the major scale with a flat third and 7th is fine but let me explain. Lets say that you are playing the major scale on the 5th fret exactly like in this video.

Why would you not just play the same exact notes on the same exact frets but only flatten the third note and the seventh note vs. Playing the same exact scale a step down?

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"Your cab on the floor becomes one with the earth, thus more resonant."

"So before any of of you corn fed,mullet head ,death metal,walmart shopping,ass licking faggots pass judgement on me, you better get your facts straight and your shit in one sock first." Jdub

"And if any man will rip thee off for a sweet guitar cab, and put thee off with lies and bullshit, let him have a crisp Andrew Jackson also." Benjamin801


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Wed, Jan 29, 2014 7:45pm 
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Doubleneck wrote:
In the key of C Major:

1) C Major (Ionian) C D E F G A B C

2) D Dorian D E F G A B C D - D Dorian is a C Major scale, just starts on the D note.

3) E Phrygian E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian is a C Major scale, just starts on the E note.

4) F Lydian F G A B C D E F - F Lydian is a C Major scale, just starts on the F note.

5) G Mixolydian G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian is a C Major scale, just starts on the G note.

6) A Aeolian A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian is a C Major scale, just starts on the A note. (Also the same as an A Minor Scale)

7) B Locrian B C D E F G A B - B Locrian is a C Major scale, just starts on the B note.


This is it in a nutshell.

But you can't learn the magic of modes in a book.

Get a backing jam track in C and then play leads. Play starting on the 3rd or 5th note, or all of them over a bit of time. Get the feel for how the scale feels over the progression.

If yo want to do something different, use a song that modulates keys, and experiment with changing the mode of the second key.

To learn modes, and basically quit worrying about them, my guitar teacher gave me a disc of tracks to work with.

It really helped to play using the mode idea. The feel of the note over the chord is what you are looking for. IMO, the whole mode business only is good for you if you can use it in your own improvising. That takes jam time.

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Wed, Jan 29, 2014 8:49pm 
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Quote:
Telling me Dorian mode is the major scale with a flat third and 7th is fine but let me explain. Lets say that you are playing the major scale on the 5th fret exactly like in this video.

Why would you not just play the same exact notes on the same exact frets but only flatten the third note and the seventh note vs. Playing the same exact scale a step down?


Not sure I follow what you mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 04, 2014 9:51pm 
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maddnotez wrote:
LLEADD wrote:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.



LLEADD wrote:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.


Ok this video REALLY helps thank you. But I still feel uneasy and have a few questions.

This makes perfect sense and is the same thing Blitz Described. I get it 100%

However what is confusing is the "theory" talk. The flat thirds and Sharp 4ths ect.

Telling me Dorian mode is the major scale with a flat third and 7th is fine but let me explain. Lets say that you are playing the major scale on the 5th fret exactly like in this video.

Why would you not just play the same exact notes on the same exact frets but only flatten the third note and the seventh note vs. Playing the same exact scale a step down?


That is exactly right.
You now know 2 different positions of the E Dorian scale (mode, whatever.)
That's all modes are.... a different position to play the same scale.
Try this:
Pick any scale you want, start it on the 6th string - 5th fret (we are in the key of A - major or minor depends on what scale you picked), play that one note (A) and move to the next string (5th string) where you would play the next 3 notes of the scale. Next, move to the 4th string and play the next 3 notes, etc., etc., playing 3 notes per string until you get to the 1st string (where you'd play 3 notes as well).
NOW,
Start at the same spot (6th st., 5th fret), but this time play two notes before moving to the 5th string where you would again play 3 notes per string until you get to the 1st string.
NEXT, (you guessed it)
3 notes on the 6th string, then move to the 5th, and so on. You now have 3 different, adjacent positions of the same scale.

Now do that same exercise for the 5th string... it will start on the 12th fret, 5th string (A again, right?)
The 3rd position of the scale that started on the 6th string will have the same higher notes as the lower notes of the 1st position that starts on the 5th string (1 note, then moving to the next string).

You have just covered the whole neck in whatever scale you chose. :rock:

Congratulations :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 25, 2014 9:46am 
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Ross, (I think?)

Thanks so much for the example. It helped me. I've been playing for many years just using the pentatonic and natural harmonic scales, etc, being that I play mostly blues based rock. Anyway, I am 52 now and decided I wanted to learn more theory. Modes have always confused me, but I think I'm getting it now.

So does this work with Minor scales? If I'm playing an A minor scale, can I use a mode to make the scale more E Phrygian? I mean, I understand the modes are used to create mood are they not? I hope that question makes sense.
Thanks
Tim

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

webrthomson wrote:
maddnotez wrote:
I have decided I really need to learn this stuff better and have encountered some confusion:

1) C Major (Ionian) I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

2) D Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

3) E Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

4) F Lydian IV 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

5) G Mixolydian V 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

6) A Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

7) B Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

My question is this, you can see how in the key of C the 2nd mode is Dorian.

Does this diagram mean that D Dorian is the C major scale with a flat third?

Thats how is appears to me, so if yes...Here is my confusion.

I have also read that each subsequent mode is starting the previous scale only on the next note.

For example C major scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So Dorian should = 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

If this is correct where is the flat third?

Hopefully somone can see how I am looking at this and can help.



Hey,

Yup the joy of modes - okay the scale degrees quoted are relative to the Major scale in questions so for Dorian you would take the D Major scale and apply a b3 and b7 (so F# -> F & C# -> C) that gives you Dorian. The aim of the modes is to make the major scale in question (D) conform to the tonality of the root scale (C Major), in this case C has no # or b notes so we "move" the notes that don't conform to the expected tonality.

Have a look at these two and (hopefully) this will make sense, scale degrees:

Image

Which means that if we look at the C Ionian (Major), D Ionian (Major) and D Dorian scales on the A string at the bottom of the finger board:

Image

NB: I'm not suggesting this is how you would play these scales; it's just one octave to bring clarity to the example!

Ross


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 26, 2014 6:23pm 
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ThrowBackMan wrote:
Ross, (I think?)

Thanks so much for the example. It helped me. I've been playing for many years just using the pentatonic and natural harmonic scales, etc, being that I play mostly blues based rock. Anyway, I am 52 now and decided I wanted to learn more theory. Modes have always confused me, but I think I'm getting it now.

So does this work with Minor scales? If I'm playing an A minor scale, can I use a mode to make the scale more E Phrygian? I mean, I understand the modes are used to create mood are they not? I hope that question makes sense.
Thanks
Tim


Hey Tim,

If I understand your question you are basically asking can we use the theory of modes to make other scales conform to a different starting position than a major scale pattern. In my example C Major / Ionian, where we then take D Major / Ionian and make it modal by making it conform to the notes of the C Major scale by making the 3rd interval flat and the 7th interval flat.

Then the short answer is yes we could, but it's not the norm, all the normal modal names we use are inferring we are relating a major scale to another, i.e. D Dorian is C Major starting on the 2nd interval of the scale, E Phrygian is C Major starting on the 3rd interval etc.

However there is nothing to stop you saying that the tonal root of the scale could not be another scale but it would need to be a scale that was not already major or minor (as we understand the interval pattern as it relates to modes e.g. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 or 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7). If you use either of those and change the scale degrees you will still be in the modes due to the relative nature of Minor scales to Major scales (the 6th degree of all major scales are the root of the relative minor and share the same notes as the major scale in question).

So if you did what (I think) you are proposing and used A Minor (the 6th Degree of C Major) to create your modes you would in fact end up with exactly the same as the example above and if you wanted to play starting in E you would use E Phrygian and it should work!

If this is not what you were asking then please feel free to expand on what you wanted to know ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 26, 2014 6:56pm 
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Thanks so much. I get it.. Love it too! Thanks
I'm going to practice now! THanks again..
Tim

webrthomson wrote:
ThrowBackMan wrote:
Ross, (I think?)

Thanks so much for the example. It helped me. I've been playing for many years just using the pentatonic and natural harmonic scales, etc, being that I play mostly blues based rock. Anyway, I am 52 now and decided I wanted to learn more theory. Modes have always confused me, but I think I'm getting it now.

So does this work with Minor scales? If I'm playing an A minor scale, can I use a mode to make the scale more E Phrygian? I mean, I understand the modes are used to create mood are they not? I hope that question makes sense.
Thanks
Tim


Hey Tim,

If I understand your question you are basically asking can we use the theory of modes to make other scales conform to a different starting position than a major scale pattern. In my example C Major / Ionian, where we then take D Major / Ionian and make it modal by making it conform to the notes of the C Major scale by making the 3rd interval flat and the 7th interval flat.

Then the short answer is yes we could, but it's not the norm, all the normal modal names we use are inferring we are relating a major scale to another, i.e. D Dorian is C Major starting on the 2nd interval of the scale, E Phrygian is C Major starting on the 3rd interval etc.

However there is nothing to stop you saying that the tonal root of the scale could not be another scale but it would need to be a scale that was not already major or minor (as we understand the interval pattern as it relates to modes e.g. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 or 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7). If you use either of those and change the scale degrees you will still be in the modes due to the relative nature of Minor scales to Major scales (the 6th degree of all major scales are the root of the relative minor and share the same notes as the major scale in question).

So if you did what (I think) you are proposing and used A Minor (the 6th Degree of C Major) to create your modes you would in fact end up with exactly the same as the example above and if you wanted to play starting in E you would use E Phrygian and it should work!

If this is not what you were asking then please feel free to expand on what you wanted to know ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 27, 2014 5:08pm 
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No bother Tim!

Since you mentioned that you mostly use pentatonics here's one to make what you already know speed up learning CAGED mode patterns.

Okay if you look at the modes there are three major, three minor and one diminished - cool, lets look at the scale degrees of the Minor Pentatonic:

1 b3 4 5 b7

And now lets look at the modes

Image

So this means that for every CAGED position you know a Minor (& Major) Pentatonic you nearly know the relevant Minor (& Major) modes - there are only 2 more scale degrees to know, like so (Blue dots are the new ones you need to add to adjust the pattern to the relevant mode):

Image

The problem child here is Locrian as its diminished and as someone commented above it's not really usable - I would caveat that with in a CAGED pattern - if you want to use it check out three note per string patterns and then it can be really ripping!!!

Hope that helps speed things up for you :)

Have fun with it dude!


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:11am 
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Webrthomson.
Thank you so much. I'll for sure check them out. I really appreciate it.
God speed sir.
Tim
Snip..Snip..


Last edited by ThrowBackMan on Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:52am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:13am 
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Where do you get these scale charts may I ask? I'd love to have some to practice.
Thanks
Tim

[quote="webrthomson"]No bother Tim!
snip


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PostPosted: Fri, Feb 28, 2014 12:45pm 
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ThrowBackMan wrote:
Where do you get these scale charts may I ask? I'd love to have some to practice.
Thanks
Tim

webrthomson wrote:
No bother Tim!
snip


You are welcome sir!

I make them with this:

http://www.neckdiagrams.com/

Well worth the $49, think what you spend on gear, the pro will write out scale patterns for you to learn from like those above :D


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PostPosted: Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:02pm 
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Thanks so much. Will check it out.. I thank you for the help sir.
Tim

webrthomson wrote:
ThrowBackMan wrote:
Where do you get these scale charts may I ask? I'd love to have some to practice.
Thanks
Tim

webrthomson wrote:
No bother Tim!
snip


You are welcome sir!

I make them with this:

http://www.neckdiagrams.com/

Well worth the $49, think what you spend on gear, the pro will write out scale patterns for you to learn from like those above :D


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PostPosted: Sun, Mar 02, 2014 11:28am 
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No bother Tim - I got plenty of help along the way, seems only fair to pay some of that back!


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 13, 2014 6:08pm 
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maddnotez wrote:
LLEADD wrote:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.



LLEADD wrote:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.


Ok this video REALLY helps thank you. But I still feel uneasy and have a few questions.

This makes perfect sense and is the same thing Blitz Described. I get it 100%

However what is confusing is the "theory" talk. The flat thirds and Sharp 4ths ect.

Telling me Dorian mode is the major scale with a flat third and 7th is fine but let me explain. Lets say that you are playing the major scale on the 5th fret exactly like in this video.

Why would you not just play the same exact notes on the same exact frets but only flatten the third note and the seventh note vs. Playing the same exact scale a step down?

This is why its soooo important to see things in intervals.... min 2nd, min 3rd, maj 3rd, perfect 4th....etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 01, 2014 7:49pm 
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War Admiral wrote:
maddnotez wrote:
LLEADD wrote:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.



LLEADD wrote:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.


Ok this video REALLY helps thank you. But I still feel uneasy and have a few questions.

This makes perfect sense and is the same thing Blitz Described. I get it 100%

However what is confusing is the "theory" talk. The flat thirds and Sharp 4ths ect.

Telling me Dorian mode is the major scale with a flat third and 7th is fine but let me explain. Lets say that you are playing the major scale on the 5th fret exactly like in this video.

Why would you not just play the same exact notes on the same exact frets but only flatten the third note and the seventh note vs. Playing the same exact scale a step down?

This is why its soooo important to see things in intervals.... min 2nd, min 3rd, maj 3rd, perfect 4th....etc.


Makes more since that way to me.

Still need to do some testing/comparisons as shown in that video so I can understand better.

It still bothers me that A Dorian or whatever it was is the same Major scale on the 5th fret instead of the 7th but that it is ALSO the same major scale on the 5th fret with a flat third and 7 lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 02, 2014 4:33pm 
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All I need to remember is play dorian over Dm7, for example. And play mixolydian over D7. Those are just two popular examples.

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 23, 2014 7:51am 
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Rather than changing the fingering of different modes couldn't you just play the Ionian fingering and move the root to create different modes or does it not work that way? I guess the example I'm thinking of is how we can move a minor pentatonic scale down 3 positions to get the major using the exact same fingering. Does this work with the Major scale?

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PostPosted: Thu, Dec 11, 2014 4:14pm 
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This confusion is why I prefer to teach modes as independent scales with unique formulas rather than relating them to their parent major scales.

Dividing the modes into major and minor tonalities and using major and minor pentatonic shapes as backbones as mentioned earlier is normally how I suggest doing it.

Don't think of D dorian as C major starting on D, think of it as a scale with the formula 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7. Which, since it's a minor mode, can more easily be thought of as D minor with a natural 6, or D minor pentatonic with a natural 2 and natural 6.

I feel it gives a better understanding of interval relationships and gives each mode its own identity so to speak without having to relate it to a major scale.


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 13, 2015 11:40am 
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I would recommend Frank Gambale's Modes, no more mystery video. Very helpful!

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Fri, May 08, 2015 2:44pm 
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chunktone wrote:
I would recommend Frank Gambale's Modes, no more mystery video. Very helpful!



This.

I have this book and it cleared up modes for me in the first sitting. You just have to find an approach that works for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Mon, May 18, 2015 10:55am 
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Interesting topic!


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Sat, May 23, 2015 12:52pm 
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maddnotez wrote:
Yea, this is why I have not learned theory and just play what I think sounds good.

So hard for me to follow this lingo. Thanks for the reply.


Me too. It is crazy confusing to me. Haha


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Sat, May 30, 2015 5:57pm 
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Simple
You take C major and play it from D to D
= D dorian


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 8:32am 
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dfrattaroli wrote:
chunktone wrote:
I would recommend Frank Gambale's Modes, no more mystery video. Very helpful!



This.

I have this book and it cleared up modes for me in the first sitting. You just have to find an approach that works for you.


Going to check this out. It is rather sad that I made this thread like 3 years ago and have not really tried to learn this stuff any more.

I had a kid and stopped playing for a while but I am getting back into it and want to learn more.

Hopefully this video helps. I do have the Guitar Grimoire and have been learning different scales from that but I really need to learn the when's why's and how's.

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 08, 2016 4:19pm 
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if you play the notes cdefgabc over or together with a cmajor u while hear the sound of ionian

if you play the notes cdefgabc over or together with a d minor u will hear the sound of dorian

if you play the notes cdefgabc over or together with a e minor u will hear the sound of phrygian

and so on and so forth


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PostPosted: Thu, Sep 08, 2016 4:46pm 
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Conceptually modes are fairly straightforward but turning it all into pretty (or brootalz) music is the hard part (for me anyway). The approach that has worked best for me is the one where you start with the major/minor pentatonics and then add the other 2 notes to make each mode. And you already know one of each major/minor mode, the actual major (Ionian) and minor (Aeolian) scales. So that gives you the 'naturals' to work with.

The minor pentatonic scale tones are 1-3-4-5-7 and the minor modes (Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian) move the 2 and 6 around. Aeolian (minor scale) is natural, Dorian is sharp 6th, Phrygian is flatted 2nd.

The major pentatonic scale tones are 1-2-3-5-6 and the major modes (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian) move the 4 and 7 around. Ionian (major scale) is natural, Lydian is sharp 4th, Mixolydian is flatted 7th.

Locrian is fubar and is it's own thing. :D

This was all mentioned above but sometimes seeing written a slightly different way makes a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 08, 2016 7:36pm 
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better yet

Maj = 1357 its resolved colors 2 , 6 , unresolved color 4 ( tension over major ) sharp or flat the colors and that will determine what mode you are in

repeat for minor chords and dominant why all the fuus about the locrian mode a minor 7b5 is also a dom9 btw you can use any of these minor modes including the locrian as altered dominant scales just control the half steps

then use the colors to set up chord and key changes

now im sure you are all saying wtf


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 13, 2017 11:19pm 
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like it up


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Sat, Jan 14, 2017 10:09am 
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bartzzz wrote:
There's a lot of noise around the modes but it really isn't that complex. They should have been called moods because each mode creates a different mood but it's

MINOR
dorian sounds minor
phrygian sounds minor

MAJOR
lydian sounds major
mixolydian sounds major

practical uses:

DORIAN - go down a tone and play major
you're playing in an A minor/blues kinda thing, or you're playing Santana, Evil Ways, easy, just muck around in G major- but try end on A

PHRYGIAN - go down 2 tones and play major
You're rocking out in E minor pentatonic and you want to get mysterious, easy just start mucking around in C major - but try to end on E

LYDIAN - go up a 5th and play that major scale
You're jamming out in E major and you want to get a little Satrianiesque, just start mucking around in B major - but try to end on E

MIXOLYDIAN - go up a 4th and play that major scale
You're vamping on a G7 chord like a funky groove. Start mucking around in C major. Instant mixo! - but try to end on G


This is a great, straightforward explanation! Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 17, 2017 9:20am 
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rgorke wrote:
So, this has been running through my mind a lot lately. I stumbled across this video and it really helped. Especially thinking about how each mode relates to the major scale. This guy shows how to actually implement the modes/ a mode into your actual playing. You don't, necessarily, need to learn each mode in each position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVHEPjt ... 2g&index=9


Yup just learn the respective patterns of each on the whole neck and move em to correspond with your modal goal / chord progression.


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 17, 2017 9:24am 
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bartzzz wrote:
There's a lot of noise around the modes but it really isn't that complex. They should have been called moods because each mode creates a different mood but it's

ALL JUST THE MAJOR SCALE WITH A DIFFERENT TONE CENTER!

This is how I deal with modes:

Every mode (with a couple of minor exceptions) is just the major scale with a different tone center created by the bass note.

7 modes right?

Forget about locrian, it sounds awful and no one uses it.

6 left

Ionian and aeolian, forget about them, they're just fancy names for what we all know as major and minor.

4 left, 2 minor, 2 major

MINOR
dorian sounds minor
phrygian sounds minor

MAJOR
lydian sounds major
mixolydian sounds major

practical uses:

DORIAN - go down a tone and play major
you're playing in an A minor/blues kinda thing, or you're playing Santana, Evil Ways, easy, just muck around in G major- but try end on A

PHRYGIAN - go down 2 tones and play major
You're rocking out in E minor pentatonic and you want to get mysterious, easy just start mucking around in C major - but try to end on E

LYDIAN - go up a 5th and play that major scale
You're jamming out in E major and you want to get a little Satrianiesque, just start mucking around in B major - but try to end on E

MIXOLYDIAN - go up a 4th and play that major scale
You're vamping on a G7 chord like a funky groove. Start mucking around in C major. Instant mixo! - but try to end on G

cheers

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Locrian is overlooked, but would be where i would insert an ascending diminished run and maybe fuck around with Harmonic minor on the descend and spiced with a super locrian even if i could remember all my scales without cheating IIRC
.... i suck, so there's a lot of inadvertant chromatics for added color and ambience ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Modal question
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 17, 2017 9:28am 
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paullypj wrote:
better yet

Maj = 1357 its resolved colors 2 , 6 , unresolved color 4 ( tension over major ) sharp or flat the colors and that will determine what mode you are in

repeat for minor chords and dominant why all the fuus about the locrian mode a minor 7b5 is also a dom9 btw you can use any of these minor modes including the locrian as altered dominant scales just control the half steps

then use the colors to set up chord and key changes

now im sure you are all saying wtf



Nope, that's a really good explanation! Overlay this explanation on a scale pattern on the neck and see it falls right in line!


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