Modal question

maddnotez

Banned
Well-known member
I have decided I really need to learn this stuff better and have encountered some confusion:

1) C Major (Ionian) I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

2) D Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

3) E Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

4) F Lydian IV 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

5) G Mixolydian V 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

6) A Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

7) B Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

My question is this, you can see how in the key of C the 2nd mode is Dorian.

Does this diagram mean that D Dorian is the C major scale with a flat third?

Thats how is appears to me, so if yes...Here is my confusion.

I have also read that each subsequent mode is starting the previous scale only on the next note.

For example C major scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So Dorian should = 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

If this is correct where is the flat third?

Hopefully somone can see how I am looking at this and can help.
 
the d dorian mode is not a c ionian with flatted 3rd, it is a c ionian play over a chord progression in d minor, playing the d as the root.

the flatted 3rd in the d dorian is a flatted 3rd in relation to d ionian (major scale)
 
Yea, this is why I have not learned theory and just play what I think sounds good.

So hard for me to follow this lingo. Thanks for the reply.
 
maddnotez":2bzadatz said:
I have decided I really need to learn this stuff better and have encountered some confusion:

1) C Major (Ionian) I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

2) D Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

3) E Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

4) F Lydian IV 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

5) G Mixolydian V 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

6) A Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

7) B Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

My question is this, you can see how in the key of C the 2nd mode is Dorian.

Does this diagram mean that D Dorian is the C major scale with a flat third?

Thats how is appears to me, so if yes...Here is my confusion.

I have also read that each subsequent mode is starting the previous scale only on the next note.

For example C major scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So Dorian should = 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

If this is correct where is the flat third?

Hopefully somone can see how I am looking at this and can help.


Hey,

Yup the joy of modes - okay the scale degrees quoted are relative to the Major scale in questions so for Dorian you would take the D Major scale and apply a b3 and b7 (so F# -> F & C# -> C) that gives you Dorian. The aim of the modes is to make the major scale in question (D) conform to the tonality of the root scale (C Major), in this case C has no # or b notes so we "move" the notes that don't conform to the expected tonality.

Have a look at these two and (hopefully) this will make sense, scale degrees:

DDorienDegrees_zps8f5ad0ea.jpg


Which means that if we look at the C Ionian (Major), D Ionian (Major) and D Dorian scales on the A string at the bottom of the finger board:

DDorianScalesPatterns_zps7a998248.jpg


NB: I'm not suggesting this is how you would play these scales; it's just one octave to bring clarity to the example!

Ross
 
Does this diagram mean that D Dorian is the C major scale with a flat third?

No, that is not how you should think about it. D Dorian is a D minor scale with a natural 6.

D minor scale : D E F G A Bb C
D Dorian: D E F G A B C D

With modes, you are basically creating scales from the parent scale 'C Major' starting at different notes. The whole idea, is that each mode will work over each chord in the Key of C:

Ex.

CMaj, Dmin, Emin, FMaj, GMaj, Amin, Bdim

Those are the chords in the key of C, if you stack 3rds.


Edit: Feel free to PM me for a further explanation. There are several other things I would memorize that will help clarify the concept of modes.
 
In the key of C Major:

1) C Major (Ionian) C D E F G A B C

2) D Dorian D E F G A B C D - D Dorian is a C Major scale, just starts on the D note.

3) E Phrygian E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian is a C Major scale, just starts on the E note.

4) F Lydian F G A B C D E F - F Lydian is a C Major scale, just starts on the F note.

5) G Mixolydian G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian is a C Major scale, just starts on the G note.

6) A Aeolian A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian is a C Major scale, just starts on the A note. (Also the same as an A Minor Scale)

7) B Locrian B C D E F G A B - B Locrian is a C Major scale, just starts on the B note.
 
So, this has been running through my mind a lot lately. I stumbled across this video and it really helped. Especially thinking about how each mode relates to the major scale. This guy shows how to actually implement the modes/ a mode into your actual playing. You don't, necessarily, need to learn each mode in each position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVHEPjt ... 2g&index=9
 
There's a lot of noise around the modes but it really isn't that complex. They should have been called moods because each mode creates a different mood but it's

ALL JUST THE MAJOR SCALE WITH A DIFFERENT TONE CENTER!

This is how I deal with modes:

Every mode (with a couple of minor exceptions) is just the major scale with a different tone center created by the bass note.

7 modes right?

Forget about locrian, it sounds awful and no one uses it.

6 left

Ionian and aeolian, forget about them, they're just fancy names for what we all know as major and minor.

4 left, 2 minor, 2 major

MINOR
dorian sounds minor
phrygian sounds minor

MAJOR
lydian sounds major
mixolydian sounds major

practical uses:

DORIAN - go down a tone and play major
you're playing in an A minor/blues kinda thing, or you're playing Santana, Evil Ways, easy, just muck around in G major- but try end on A

PHRYGIAN - go down 2 tones and play major
You're rocking out in E minor pentatonic and you want to get mysterious, easy just start mucking around in C major - but try to end on E

LYDIAN - go up a 5th and play that major scale
You're jamming out in E major and you want to get a little Satrianiesque, just start mucking around in B major - but try to end on E

MIXOLYDIAN - go up a 4th and play that major scale
You're vamping on a G7 chord like a funky groove. Start mucking around in C major. Instant mixo! - but try to end on G

cheers

Shutup & Play - Rock Guitar Tutorials
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAwuvzhah0KUw5QNihSkEwQ
 
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.
 
LLEADD":el5zgh0a said:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.


LLEADD":el5zgh0a said:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.

Ok this video REALLY helps thank you. But I still feel uneasy and have a few questions.

This makes perfect sense and is the same thing Blitz Described. I get it 100%

However what is confusing is the "theory" talk. The flat thirds and Sharp 4ths ect.

Telling me Dorian mode is the major scale with a flat third and 7th is fine but let me explain. Lets say that you are playing the major scale on the 5th fret exactly like in this video.

Why would you not just play the same exact notes on the same exact frets but only flatten the third note and the seventh note vs. Playing the same exact scale a step down?
 
Doubleneck":36a21hn7 said:
In the key of C Major:

1) C Major (Ionian) C D E F G A B C

2) D Dorian D E F G A B C D - D Dorian is a C Major scale, just starts on the D note.

3) E Phrygian E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian is a C Major scale, just starts on the E note.

4) F Lydian F G A B C D E F - F Lydian is a C Major scale, just starts on the F note.

5) G Mixolydian G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian is a C Major scale, just starts on the G note.

6) A Aeolian A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian is a C Major scale, just starts on the A note. (Also the same as an A Minor Scale)

7) B Locrian B C D E F G A B - B Locrian is a C Major scale, just starts on the B note.

This is it in a nutshell.

But you can't learn the magic of modes in a book.

Get a backing jam track in C and then play leads. Play starting on the 3rd or 5th note, or all of them over a bit of time. Get the feel for how the scale feels over the progression.

If yo want to do something different, use a song that modulates keys, and experiment with changing the mode of the second key.

To learn modes, and basically quit worrying about them, my guitar teacher gave me a disc of tracks to work with.

It really helped to play using the mode idea. The feel of the note over the chord is what you are looking for. IMO, the whole mode business only is good for you if you can use it in your own improvising. That takes jam time.
 
Telling me Dorian mode is the major scale with a flat third and 7th is fine but let me explain. Lets say that you are playing the major scale on the 5th fret exactly like in this video.

Why would you not just play the same exact notes on the same exact frets but only flatten the third note and the seventh note vs. Playing the same exact scale a step down?

Not sure I follow what you mean.
 
maddnotez":1vpjow07 said:
LLEADD":1vpjow07 said:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.


LLEADD":1vpjow07 said:
My understanding of modes is as follows.
I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.


Play an open Low E Drone.
Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.
That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.
But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.
Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.
D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.)
---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.



Moving along to the other modes, follow this video, it's really easy and makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video
and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.

Ok this video REALLY helps thank you. But I still feel uneasy and have a few questions.

This makes perfect sense and is the same thing Blitz Described. I get it 100%

However what is confusing is the "theory" talk. The flat thirds and Sharp 4ths ect.

Telling me Dorian mode is the major scale with a flat third and 7th is fine but let me explain. Lets say that you are playing the major scale on the 5th fret exactly like in this video.

Why would you not just play the same exact notes on the same exact frets but only flatten the third note and the seventh note vs. Playing the same exact scale a step down?

That is exactly right.
You now know 2 different positions of the E Dorian scale (mode, whatever.)
That's all modes are.... a different position to play the same scale.
Try this:
Pick any scale you want, start it on the 6th string - 5th fret (we are in the key of A - major or minor depends on what scale you picked), play that one note (A) and move to the next string (5th string) where you would play the next 3 notes of the scale. Next, move to the 4th string and play the next 3 notes, etc., etc., playing 3 notes per string until you get to the 1st string (where you'd play 3 notes as well).
NOW,
Start at the same spot (6th st., 5th fret), but this time play two notes before moving to the 5th string where you would again play 3 notes per string until you get to the 1st string.
NEXT, (you guessed it)
3 notes on the 6th string, then move to the 5th, and so on. You now have 3 different, adjacent positions of the same scale.

Now do that same exercise for the 5th string... it will start on the 12th fret, 5th string (A again, right?)
The 3rd position of the scale that started on the 6th string will have the same higher notes as the lower notes of the 1st position that starts on the 5th string (1 note, then moving to the next string).

You have just covered the whole neck in whatever scale you chose. :rock:

Congratulations :thumbsup:
 
Ross, (I think?)

Thanks so much for the example. It helped me. I've been playing for many years just using the pentatonic and natural harmonic scales, etc, being that I play mostly blues based rock. Anyway, I am 52 now and decided I wanted to learn more theory. Modes have always confused me, but I think I'm getting it now.

So does this work with Minor scales? If I'm playing an A minor scale, can I use a mode to make the scale more E Phrygian? I mean, I understand the modes are used to create mood are they not? I hope that question makes sense.
Thanks
Tim

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

webrthomson":3d8jp94j said:
maddnotez":3d8jp94j said:
I have decided I really need to learn this stuff better and have encountered some confusion:

1) C Major (Ionian) I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

2) D Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

3) E Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

4) F Lydian IV 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

5) G Mixolydian V 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

6) A Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

7) B Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

My question is this, you can see how in the key of C the 2nd mode is Dorian.

Does this diagram mean that D Dorian is the C major scale with a flat third?

Thats how is appears to me, so if yes...Here is my confusion.

I have also read that each subsequent mode is starting the previous scale only on the next note.

For example C major scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So Dorian should = 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

If this is correct where is the flat third?

Hopefully somone can see how I am looking at this and can help.


Hey,

Yup the joy of modes - okay the scale degrees quoted are relative to the Major scale in questions so for Dorian you would take the D Major scale and apply a b3 and b7 (so F# -> F & C# -> C) that gives you Dorian. The aim of the modes is to make the major scale in question (D) conform to the tonality of the root scale (C Major), in this case C has no # or b notes so we "move" the notes that don't conform to the expected tonality.

Have a look at these two and (hopefully) this will make sense, scale degrees:

DDorienDegrees_zps8f5ad0ea.jpg


Which means that if we look at the C Ionian (Major), D Ionian (Major) and D Dorian scales on the A string at the bottom of the finger board:

DDorianScalesPatterns_zps7a998248.jpg


NB: I'm not suggesting this is how you would play these scales; it's just one octave to bring clarity to the example!

Ross
 
ThrowBackMan":3rkc23xi said:
Ross, (I think?)

Thanks so much for the example. It helped me. I've been playing for many years just using the pentatonic and natural harmonic scales, etc, being that I play mostly blues based rock. Anyway, I am 52 now and decided I wanted to learn more theory. Modes have always confused me, but I think I'm getting it now.

So does this work with Minor scales? If I'm playing an A minor scale, can I use a mode to make the scale more E Phrygian? I mean, I understand the modes are used to create mood are they not? I hope that question makes sense.
Thanks
Tim

Hey Tim,

If I understand your question you are basically asking can we use the theory of modes to make other scales conform to a different starting position than a major scale pattern. In my example C Major / Ionian, where we then take D Major / Ionian and make it modal by making it conform to the notes of the C Major scale by making the 3rd interval flat and the 7th interval flat.

Then the short answer is yes we could, but it's not the norm, all the normal modal names we use are inferring we are relating a major scale to another, i.e. D Dorian is C Major starting on the 2nd interval of the scale, E Phrygian is C Major starting on the 3rd interval etc.

However there is nothing to stop you saying that the tonal root of the scale could not be another scale but it would need to be a scale that was not already major or minor (as we understand the interval pattern as it relates to modes e.g. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 or 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7). If you use either of those and change the scale degrees you will still be in the modes due to the relative nature of Minor scales to Major scales (the 6th degree of all major scales are the root of the relative minor and share the same notes as the major scale in question).

So if you did what (I think) you are proposing and used A Minor (the 6th Degree of C Major) to create your modes you would in fact end up with exactly the same as the example above and if you wanted to play starting in E you would use E Phrygian and it should work!

If this is not what you were asking then please feel free to expand on what you wanted to know ;-)
 
Thanks so much. I get it.. Love it too! Thanks
I'm going to practice now! THanks again..
Tim

webrthomson":7pamslls said:
ThrowBackMan":7pamslls said:
Ross, (I think?)

Thanks so much for the example. It helped me. I've been playing for many years just using the pentatonic and natural harmonic scales, etc, being that I play mostly blues based rock. Anyway, I am 52 now and decided I wanted to learn more theory. Modes have always confused me, but I think I'm getting it now.

So does this work with Minor scales? If I'm playing an A minor scale, can I use a mode to make the scale more E Phrygian? I mean, I understand the modes are used to create mood are they not? I hope that question makes sense.
Thanks
Tim

Hey Tim,

If I understand your question you are basically asking can we use the theory of modes to make other scales conform to a different starting position than a major scale pattern. In my example C Major / Ionian, where we then take D Major / Ionian and make it modal by making it conform to the notes of the C Major scale by making the 3rd interval flat and the 7th interval flat.

Then the short answer is yes we could, but it's not the norm, all the normal modal names we use are inferring we are relating a major scale to another, i.e. D Dorian is C Major starting on the 2nd interval of the scale, E Phrygian is C Major starting on the 3rd interval etc.

However there is nothing to stop you saying that the tonal root of the scale could not be another scale but it would need to be a scale that was not already major or minor (as we understand the interval pattern as it relates to modes e.g. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 or 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7). If you use either of those and change the scale degrees you will still be in the modes due to the relative nature of Minor scales to Major scales (the 6th degree of all major scales are the root of the relative minor and share the same notes as the major scale in question).

So if you did what (I think) you are proposing and used A Minor (the 6th Degree of C Major) to create your modes you would in fact end up with exactly the same as the example above and if you wanted to play starting in E you would use E Phrygian and it should work!

If this is not what you were asking then please feel free to expand on what you wanted to know ;-)
 
No bother Tim!

Since you mentioned that you mostly use pentatonics here's one to make what you already know speed up learning CAGED mode patterns.

Okay if you look at the modes there are three major, three minor and one diminished - cool, lets look at the scale degrees of the Minor Pentatonic:

1 b3 4 5 b7

And now lets look at the modes

MinorModeDegrees_zps2d0eaae0.jpg


So this means that for every CAGED position you know a Minor (& Major) Pentatonic you nearly know the relevant Minor (& Major) modes - there are only 2 more scale degrees to know, like so (Blue dots are the new ones you need to add to adjust the pattern to the relevant mode:)

MinorModeChanges_zps0207e978.jpg


The problem child here is Locrian as its diminished and as someone commented above it's not really usable - I would caveat that with in a CAGED pattern - if you want to use it check out three note per string patterns and then it can be really ripping!!!

Hope that helps speed things up for you :)

Have fun with it dude!
 
Back
Top