WOS III plugin effecting bounced track in Logic Pro X.

I came across a realization today.

I was recording using WOS III w/ my Suhr Reactive load. I was very happy with the sound that I got when listening back in playback mode in Logic. So I bounced out the guitar track. I put the bounced track back in Logic and compared the 2 tracks as I felt like I wasn't getting the same quality of sound with the bounced track.

I thought I was going crazy, so I checked the phase. Completely silent, so then I assumed it was all in my mind. But I kept hearing it. The bounced track didn't have as much smoothness, depth, 3dness as the live track. I played it back over and over throughout the day giving my ears rest and closing my eyes. But it kept happening and I couldn't not hear it.

So I used Logic's frequency analyzer and bluecat's frequency analyzer and they were definitely different. Especially in the lower and higher frequencies. We're talking very subtle changes and differences, but enough to bother me. Probably not most people.

So as another experiment, I then recorded the live track to another track in real time. And then compared the newly recorded audio track (from the original live track) to the bounced track and they were exactly the same according to the graph.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that the WOS III plugin definitely has an effect in the bounce process to slightly alter or somehow degrade the sound a bit to the final bounce.

Wondering what can be done about this. Is this something people know about and just accept, or did I analyze it further than anyone else ever has to the 10th degree? lol. Really want to know what I should do, because I need to rely on guitar tracks that I'm sending out to clients, and trust my ears of what I'm hearing in Logic.

Hi, can you provide a bit more explanation of what process you are comparing as this is not clear to me.

sysexguy":3ld24ouf said:

Hi, can you provide a bit more explanation of what process you are comparing as this is not clear to me.

Click to expand...

I'm comparing the track with WOS III plugin to a bounced version of that same track. When using the frequency analyzer, the live track with the plugin has a higher frequency range than the bounced track and sounds better.

As a side note I recorded the live track through a bus and aux onto a new track and that track matches the bounced track on the frequency spectrum.

Ah OK, I see, I read through your thread on gearslutz as well and I'm glad that there are some useful responses in there.

Logic has several bounce options and within each, there are some optional parameters, some of which add some processing to the database.

The following is a mix of factoid and opinion so take it for what it is worth. I am a Logic user since Creator 1.1....ie 30 years. Logic is amazing and I love it however it is, on a good day "nearly sample accurate". In addition, with whatever extra bits for mixing, floating point math etc. etc., the mixer has a serious headroom threshold that does not handle intersample peaks very well and these can occur at any stage in the mix path.

There are systems that do not have these issues and no, I'm not talking about ProTools. I choose to accept the limitations and continue working on the platform I know and generally love.

Just to open up the discussion, here is the gearslutz thread in question https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-c ... track.html

The problem is the two notes WOS III is the main plug in that causes this problem in my system. A bunch of other plug ins don't cause the same problem. So wondering if this is something the company or others are aware and have experimented with or if it's just happening on my system?

I want to check in on this issue once again. I have run a lot of different tests with Logic, and have bounced tracks that have other plugins or no plugins at all on them and according to frequency analyzers the playback track and bounced track are exactly the same. But with the WOS III they always seem to be a bit different. Difference mainly in low end and high end.

Trying to figure out why...

Bumping this thread once again...has anyone at the company tested this yet? Or two notes WOS III users as well?

"Exactly" how different in your freq analyzers (or better yet post screen shots!)?

What tuning is your source in (standard, detuned to something etc)?

You say the files null completely, but look different in your freq analyzers, and that you hear a difference regarding "smoothness, depth, 3dness", but not in frequency response?

Were the levels carefully matched when you were comparing the two files?

djd100":xkcup2gi said:

"Exactly" how different in your freq analyzers (or better yet post screen shots!)?

What tuning is your source in (standard, detuned to something etc)?

You say the files null completely, but look different in your freq analyzers, and that you hear a difference regarding "smoothness, depth, 3dness", but not in frequency response?

Click to expand...

The frequencies in the low and end and high end look quite different on the chart. Not drastically, but enough to make my ears hear the difference.

It's in standard tuning.

My theory is the reason why I don't hear anything when trying the phase test is they are in such low and high frequencies that that's not where the guitar sits. But it does have a subtle effect on the smoothness, depth, etc. But who knows...

There is definitely a subtle sonic difference. And other plugins don't have this same issue. I think we need some official tests from the company to be done. Would love to hear other people's experience when doing the frequency test too.

Post screen shots and audio files so we can see and hear what you're seeing and hearing, and version etc of the freq analyzer used.

bluedog25":1siypzpn said:

djd100":1siypzpn said:

"Exactly" how different in your freq analyzers (or better yet post screen shots!)?

What tuning is your source in (standard, detuned to something etc)?

You say the files null completely, but look different in your freq analyzers, and that you hear a difference regarding "smoothness, depth, 3dness", but not in frequency response?

Click to expand...

The frequencies in the low and end and high end look quite different on the chart. Not drastically, but enough to make my ears hear the difference.

It's in standard tuning.

My theory is the reason why I don't hear anything when trying the phase test is they are in such low and high frequencies that that's not where the guitar sits. But it does have a subtle effect on the smoothness, depth, etc. But who knows...

There is definitely a subtle sonic difference. And other plugins don't have this same issue. I think we need some official tests from the company to be done. Would love to hear other people's experience when doing the frequency test too.

Click to expand...

djd100":1x1owicg said:

Post screen shots and audio files so we can see and hear what you're seeing and hearing, and version etc of the freq analyzer used.

bluedog25":1x1owicg said:

djd100":1x1owicg said:

"Exactly" how different in your freq analyzers (or better yet post screen shots!)?

What tuning is your source in (standard, detuned to something etc)?

You say the files null completely, but look different in your freq analyzers, and that you hear a difference regarding "smoothness, depth, 3dness", but not in frequency response?

Click to expand...

The frequencies in the low and end and high end look quite different on the chart. Not drastically, but enough to make my ears hear the difference.

It's in standard tuning.

My theory is the reason why I don't hear anything when trying the phase test is they are in such low and high frequencies that that's not where the guitar sits. But it does have a subtle effect on the smoothness, depth, etc. But who knows...

There is definitely a subtle sonic difference. And other plugins don't have this same issue. I think we need some official tests from the company to be done. Would love to hear other people's experience when doing the frequency test too.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how to post a picture here on the message board...

Regarding the audio files, that would defeat the purpose, because once I bounce out a track it's not in playback mode. The point is that i'm comparing a bounced track of the track using the WOS III vs. the playback track in real time.

I'm surprised there has been no official response from anyone in two notes yet regarding this issue. Has anyone else done this test yet? My other tracks with other plugins and/or no plugins on them don't seem to have this same problem.

Bounce one track from the source through the plugin, then buss the source through the plugin out in real-time to a new record track and record that. Make them 24bit waves at whatever sample rate you're using.

Put the two files clearly titled in Dropbox and post the URL to them via the "URL" button.

Host the screen shot images of the freq analyzer(s) on Photobucket or somewhere, and use the "Img" button to attach them to your post via their URL's.

You say the files null, which means they're so close as to not matter, so everyone most likely is skeptical seeing that you are the only person complaining of this problem out of a very large installed base (I know I am...). Post some evidence first and most likely someone will look at the problem assuming you can actually prove there is a problem.

You should also try some DAW other than Logic as well seeing Andy has already noted some issues with it's tack bouncing. How about Reaper as it's free if you don't have any others available? I rarely use Logic instead preferring Pro Tools TDM/HTDM (or Digital Performer if a lot of MIDI), and I've never had this problem, so I don't know...

bluedog25":1jmmb3ra said:

I'm not sure how to post a picture here on the message board...

Regarding the audio files, that would defeat the purpose, because once I bounce out a track it's not in playback mode. The point is that i'm comparing a bounced track of the track using the WOS III vs. the playback track in real time.

I'm surprised there has been no official response from anyone in two notes yet regarding this issue. Has anyone else done this test yet? My other tracks with other plugins and/or no plugins on them don't seem to have this same problem.

Click to expand...

I will try to get this posted in the next day...but has anybody at two notes been able to officially test this or has anyone else tested it? seems to be a legitimate problem from my end.

I can test this once I'm back in the office (currently travelling visiting suppliers). The Metric Halo i/o's I have allow me to record post Logic so we can compare the bounce file with the realtime play through. Please post your comparison procedure so I can assure we do the right tests.

I'm surprised there has been no official response from anyone in two notes yet regarding this issue. Has anyone else done this test yet? My other tracks with other plugins and/or no plugins on them don't seem to have this same problem.

Click to expand...

Don't be, we are closed at that time of the year and we just finished moving to our new location so we were quite busy the past couple of weeks, I hope you understand.

We never noticed such difference, but the first thing I would do is apply the analyser on the phase cancelation track.

Meaning you route the WoS III real time and the WoS III bounced OUT OF PHASE to the same MONO track, and insert on that track an analyser.

I would be very curious to see the result, if you can post an image and/or send that to our Help Desk.

We will try to do the same test on our side on some tracks we have.

So we did the test I talked about earlier, comparing (by putting one track out of phase) a real time processing of a track with WoS III with the same track bounced.

Here is a screenshot, perfect correlation, zero noise whatsoever.



So maybe we are missing something but I don't really see what. We tried changing buffer size, latency, sampling rate of the project...

guillaume_pille":1m646mdt said:

So we did the test I talked about earlier, comparing (by putting one track out of phase) a real time processing of a track with WoS III with the same track bounced.

Here is a screenshot, perfect correlation, zero noise whatsoever.

So maybe we are missing something but I don't really see what. We tried changing buffer size, latency, sampling rate of the project...

Click to expand...

Thanks Guillame. So I noticed it in the frequency analyzer. I analyzed with a graph both tracks and there was definetly a difference. I could also hear the difference. But the tracks did phase each other out, which is the most weirdest thing in the world. Can you put a graph up to the track in playback mode vs there diff bounced file and see if the frequency analyzer matches up? Curious on what you will find.

I did that at first of course, and if they phase out it's specifically because their frequency content is absolutely, unequivocally, the same.

There is not way they are different and cancel each other when put together. They could be on part of the spectrum and but I checked that as well.

So far I don't really know what to do with this, maybe you can record the playing track by bridging one output to one input on your soundcard, and do the same on the bounced track (so they get modified the same by the DA and AD conversion)? That way there is no bounce from logic, just play and record, if the bounce is the issue.

I must say it's a tricky issue to solve, as we don't have the same thing here. I don't doubt a second that you are hearing differences, I just don't see how to make them obvious on our side so we can investigate.

By doing the record I suggest, you could share your recorded files with us, the differences you're hearing should be easy to hear on our side as well.