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PostPosted: Sat, Jan 27, 2018 5:20am 
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Hack

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Hello,

I couldn't find a topic specifically meant to have suggestions for improvements of the unit, so I thought it a good idea to have one :)

Let's see what could be improved in this fantastic unit. For me, here's the things which need improvement:

- Dynamic response - the feel and response when playing using the internal loadbox could be more dynamic. Currently it feels a bit on the unnatural side to my taste. Oddly enough, the same goes when using a line level signal source.
- EQ Module - when using the EQ module, there's a significant reduction in the quality of the sound, especially when using third party IRs. I guess the EQ takes extra processing and the signal bit rate is lowered in order to handle it, but it sounds plastic. I'd rather have fewer bands instead or something, but lower or lose the negative effect for sure.
- Parametric EQ instead of Graphic - suggested by DrV
- Power Amp simulations - it'll be cool to have 2 modes in Power Amp section. First the default mode and second with emulations of Power Amps from different heads made by Mesa, Orange, Rivera, etc. That's how they can avoid the destruction of presets, improve this technology, capture Power Amps as cabs , finally remake the interface of this section and add normal presence control, that acts according to captured amp. Something like Poweramp Capture Masters program - suggested by DrV

And one new features:
- To be able to control the mics' angle

Now, I know there are probably hardware limitations present, so here's what I can easily live without in order to get the previously mentioned improvements:
- Poweramp simulations - who uses those anyway? They aren't something to write home about and the unit has a loadbox. So it's mostly used with a real poweramp and the times it's not it's presumably used with a good preamp and those already have a poweramp sim included.
- Reverbs - not that those are bad or anything, but live you don't usually need them and for recordings there are lots of better options.
- EQ module - if it comes up to that, I could even lose the EQ module in order to get the dynamic response and the ability to edit mic angles :)

So, what do you guys think?


Last edited by neverwind on Sun, Jan 28, 2018 3:05pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat, Jan 27, 2018 6:19am 
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Hack

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Here're some thoughts.

The ONLY worthwhile equalizer for distorted guitar is the mic positioning and multi-mic mixing. The Torpedo's built-in EQ is ok and doesn't reduce the sound quality, it's just the nature of the beast. When you try to eq, let's say, heavy distorted guitar, this kind of altering the harmonics rich signal is obvious to well-trained ear, making it "unnatural" or "plastic". It's how human ears work. Artistic EQing feels ok for clean or slightly pushed tones, but never so for more or less gainy, unless you do broad shelving. Professional sound engineers know about that. Anyway, it's better to have this option onboard than not, especially for some technical EQing. Besides this, it'll be handful to have a parametric EQ instead of graphic. :yes:

I agree about mic angles, but it requires a whole new technology, I suppose. It's mentioned here by Guillaume himself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXOpHAOIe98 at 7.11 and further. It could be a handy feature.

Poweramps are ok too. It's like having gouache, watercolor, tempera and oil paints on one palette. Use what you like, what colors your tone the best for the situation. And its a perfect backup option if one of your power tubes abruptly dies in the middle of a show :yes:


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PostPosted: Sun, Jan 28, 2018 9:23am 
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Hack

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To my ears, there's sound degradation even when activating the EQ module only, without actually cutting or boosting bands.
And using my Aphex 109 EQ instead doesn't really bring that unnatural plastic vibe to the table either, so to me it's something on the Torpedo's side.

Parametric EQ would be great, if done the right way. I'll add it to the list :)

PowerAmp simulations I can't disagree more on - they are nothing special, they don't bring any 'feel' to the sound and the subtlety of their effect on the signal renders them really useless. The closest thing to power amp emulation I've had experience with is an old analog unit called Ampulator, developed by ADA. Besides, if you end up blowing a tube during a show, you'd better have that backup amp ready. Otherwise it will be one hell of a show :)


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PostPosted: Sun, Jan 28, 2018 2:06pm 
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Hack

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Well, Ampulators are THAT rare, that it'll be more rational to make or buy a real poweramp instead of it. It'll be the real thing, better than any emulation indeed.

Few words from the conversation with Guillaume about poweramps:
Quote:
i'm totally down to rework that part of the process and I agree it can use some improvement, the only issue with that is we'll destroy all the current presets that all our customers carefully crafted, and i'm not a big fan of that. :/
.

I think, you get the idea ;) But it'll be cool to have 2 modes in poweramp section. First the default mode and second with emulations of poweramps from different heads made by Mesa, Orange, Rivera, etc. That's how they can avoid the destruction of presets, improve this technology, capture poweramps as cabs , finally remake the interface of this section and add normal presence control, that acts according to captured poweramp. Something like Poweramp Capture Masters program. Guillaume, if you read this, it's a business plan! 15 euro per virtual poweramp! I'm first in line! :D

About engaged EQ. I suppose it's better to examine and compare the spectrograms of the signals from the pink noise generator with EQ turned on and off. If there is a difference then you are right. If not, your ears deceive you.


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PostPosted: Sun, Jan 28, 2018 3:02pm 
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Hack

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I know Ampulators ARE rare. And believe me, at least twice as much in Europe. I've been literally hunting one down for several years until finally I got my hands on a rather preserved unit!
But it was worth it - sounds amazing, better than any digital amp emulation I've heard. But enough off topic :)

Anyway, I guess I'll just add your suggestion about the power amp simulations to the improvements list, although I don't think it's really something they shouldn't focus on. Not that it wouldn't be cool to have, but rather because there are still things to be done on the cabinet part first. Plus, coming up with a good algorithm to simulate things that happen within a tube power amp is a rather impossible or at least really really difficult task. I guess they can easily capture a Power Amp tone-wise, at least. But as for the interaction between tubes and transformers and the way an amp 'behaves' in different situations...I don't think so.

The spectogram is a great idea - I'll go ahead and play around with it and will get back on this one :)


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PostPosted: Mon, Feb 05, 2018 10:13am 
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Plank Cranker Wanker
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Hi guys, I post a quick message here to flag this thread.

I'll try to find some time to address the numerous questions here. ;)

I'll start with those:

Quote:
- Dynamic response - the feel and response when playing using the internal loadbox could be more dynamic. Currently it feels a bit on the unnatural side to my taste. Oddly enough, the same goes when using a line level signal source.


Do you mean that when recording your amp in "real" condition you feel the resulting sound to be more dynamic? Is there something you could hear/measure on sound file for example?

Quote:
- EQ Module - when using the EQ module, there's a significant reduction in the quality of the sound, especially when using third party IRs. I guess the EQ takes extra processing and the signal bit rate is lowered in order to handle it, but it sounds plastic. I'd rather have fewer bands instead or something, but lower or lose the negative effect for sure.


We do not touch the sample rate or anything, an EQ takes pretty much zero ressource. And the EQ is not different whether you use the Two notes cabinets or 3rd party IRs.

By any chance did you try the EQ we have on Wall of Sound (also present in the Torpedo Studio). That one is parametric.

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Affiliation: President @ OROSYS SAS, owner of Two Notes Audio Engineering

Creating pro audio product for the guitar and bass players:
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PostPosted: Thu, Feb 08, 2018 12:57am 
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Hack

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Hello Guillaume,

Thanks for dropping by :)
I'll try to make some recordings and get back to you.
Keep up the good work!


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PostPosted: Thu, Feb 08, 2018 11:19am 
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Plank Cranker Wanker
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Joined: Tue, Feb 22, 2011 3:43am
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Location: France
Well thank you, I appreciate to get some request for improvements, it helps us all make and enjoy better products!

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Affiliation: President @ OROSYS SAS, owner of Two Notes Audio Engineering

Creating pro audio product for the guitar and bass players:
Website : Two Notes Audio Engineering
Follow us on Youtube and Facebook
Two Notes samples on Soundcloud

For the best support, please check the FAQ and create a ticket on the Two Notes Help Desk


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PostPosted: Sat, Feb 17, 2018 3:58pm 
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Hack

Joined: Sun, Sep 03, 2017 6:24am
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Still nothing about poweramps idea. Guillaume, I'd like to know, do you plan something like this at Two Notes? Is it possible in technical terms? If it's a secret for future NAMMs, I'll understand. As far as I know, no company in the world had a true success with it, even Fractal. But I believe that French engineering school is one of the best. Your predecessors invented the tallest building, the fastest trains, the concept of nuclear energy, even the sci-fi genre (Jules Verne, of course :) ) All of this things were cutting edge. And I believe if you invented the best cabsim system on the planet, you can sooner or later invent the best customisable virtual poweramp system.


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