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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 1:30pm 
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Been blasting the past, since I rescued some of my vinyl from the UK and this one was in there, a two LP version no less.

Spinning it up today on my little tube (snob) amp into my Polks/sub.....man this recording crushes, the guitars are just so there and the bass so authoritative....some of the best recorded tone ever! :rock:

I remember a Guitar mag from back then and the guys talking about the 'aunch' they got on this album..heheheh

This is all SLO right?

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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 1:41pm 
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Great album. The production is top notch. I’m curious about the amps as well. Think there was a thread on this not terribly long ago. Not sure, though. It sounds more Marshall JMP than SLO to me.


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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 1:54pm 
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I think there's a bunch of amps on there, but for the Soldano part of it I think it´s actually the X88 preamp rather than the SLO head. Probably running into a big solidstate power amp like most people did at that time, but around 1990-91 you also see people shifting over to the VHTs.

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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 3:10pm 
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IIRC, DeGarmo used a Soldano X88 preamp and Wilton used a Wizard preamp and they both used Carvin FET900 power amps.


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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 3:19pm 
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Here’s what I found.

this is from Guitar Player Nov 1991 (ah...the good old days)

"For the Building Empires Tour, Chris and Michael ordered a variety of custom-finished axes from ESP. Chris' preference: maple-topped mahogany MII body with original Floyd, SD Screamin Eagle humbucker and Evans Single coil, Ebony fretboard, jumbo frets and 'triryche" logo. Michael: strat-shaped bodies, maple fretboard, crucifix of triryche logo and same pups/tremolo.



For the Empire sessions, Engineer Jim Barton explains:

Bradshaw racks with Eventide H-3000 and a changing array of effects. They developed their own kind of amplification, which is all enclosed. It consisted of two small marshall boxes (?) placed in a huge road case, with the mic slammed up hard against the speakers. I didn't touch them...no EQ....no anything. They both use Marshalls with Celestion speakers....but now Chris has got two Soldanos.

All we did for Empire was program the rack. We didn't use any studio fx at all. Shure SM-58's.

(Also adding They're just fine musicians."



SO there you go. I hope it helps. Looks like Chris used Soldanos and Michael used a Marshall. They don't say what model.


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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 3:24pm 
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Not just god tone, god everything. That album has one of the best productions in rock and metal history. The way the bass and drums lock in for a massive low end is amazing.


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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 3:33pm 
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That album was awesome! I wish there were pictures of their racks somewhere but I cannot find anything on the web.


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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 3:56pm 
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thrashinbatman wrote:
Not just god tone, god everything. That album has one of the best productions in rock and metal history. The way the bass and drums lock in for a massive low end is amazing.



my thoughts too. Eddie Jackson’s bass tone makes the guitars even sing more. it’s really complimenting all around. funny thing is Silent Lucidity is my least fav on it...yet their biggest hit. i felt it was a Floyd knockoff kinda. but Della Brown is money. i listen to it a lot and try to figure out what effects they are using on the solo parts. it’s like Chorus/Flange/reverb. it’s just a great album. i mean, operation Mindcrime is like top 5 maybe all time, but Empire is no setback. after that album though, went downhill fast.


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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 4:01pm 
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Saw that tour. Suicidal tendencies opened.
It was a great show. Crystal clear everything.
:rock:

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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 5:48pm 
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I read something from Wilton once that said they used detune. It was the thickner. I have been using for many years

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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 5:55pm 
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crwnedblasphemy wrote:
thrashinbatman wrote:
Not just god tone, god everything. That album has one of the best productions in rock and metal history. The way the bass and drums lock in for a massive low end is amazing.



my thoughts too. Eddie Jackson’s bass tone makes the guitars even sing more. it’s really complimenting all around. funny thing is Silent Lucidity is my least fav on it...yet their biggest hit. i felt it was a Floyd knockoff kinda. but Della Brown is money. i listen to it a lot and try to figure out what effects they are using on the solo parts. it’s like Chorus/Flange/reverb. it’s just a great album. i mean, operation Mindcrime is like top 5 maybe all time, but Empire is no setback. after that album though, went downhill fast.

Della Brown sound is awesome whatever it is. That icy clean tone is sick. And I can't agree more about the bass tone. I've been listening to this a bit recently too. I want a X88r lol.


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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 7:51pm 
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One of my favorites since I was a kid. I believe Michael used a couple different Marshall heads but that’s all I really know.

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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 8:27pm 
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The cleans sound like JC 120 to me. Mindcrime is a masterpiece of a record, their zenith. But Empire was good, too. I remember reading somewhere around the time Empire came out that a lot of guys who were mixing front of house for big bands where using that album by playing it over the loudspeakers before gigs to help them get a good mix.


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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 9:17pm 
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LP Freak wrote:
Here’s what I found.

this is from Guitar Player Nov 1991 (ah...the good old days)

"For the Building Empires Tour, Chris and Michael ordered a variety of custom-finished axes from ESP. Chris' preference: maple-topped mahogany MII body with original Floyd, SD Screamin Eagle humbucker and Evans Single coil, Ebony fretboard, jumbo frets and 'triryche" logo. Michael: strat-shaped bodies, maple fretboard, crucifix of triryche logo and same pups/tremolo.



For the Empire sessions, Engineer Jim Barton explains:

Bradshaw racks with Eventide H-3000 and a changing array of effects. They developed their own kind of amplification, which is all enclosed. It consisted of two small marshall boxes (?) placed in a huge road case, with the mic slammed up hard against the speakers. I didn't touch them...no EQ....no anything. They both use Marshalls with Celestion speakers....but now Chris has got two Soldanos.

All we did for Empire was program the rack. We didn't use any studio fx at all. Shure SM-58's.

(Also adding They're just fine musicians."



SO there you go. I hope it helps. Looks like Chris used Soldanos and Michael used a Marshall. They don't say what model.



If I'm reading this right it says they both used marshalls and celestion speakers for Empire... then he mentions that chris has soldanos "now" i.e. when the record was done but not during recording


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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 9:21pm 
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someone needs to email peter collins and ask specifics

sm58 is interesting. has less compression. i like them


Last edited by crwnedblasphemy on Sat, Aug 11, 2018 9:27pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 9:25pm 
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Like many players they had Lee Jackson Modded Marshalls, and Jose A modded Marshalls but no clue as to which ones they used.

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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 10:06pm 
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Yup, saw the Empire tour at Joe Louis arena in Detroit. Was incredible!


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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 11, 2018 11:46pm 
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I saw them on the Empire tour, too. Great show, one of my top 3 shows of all time. While I like Mindcrime as an album better, Empire was such a step forward in many ways, especially the quality of the recording and the production. Della Brown... oh yeah... I still do use this album when I'm testing studio monitors. There's such great depth to the sounds.

I'd always heard that the album (as well as Mindcrime) was all Marshall. I'm not sure I believe that, though. Wilton's parts, yeah, OK, I'll buy that as a Marshall. But some of DeGarmo's parts... IDK, at least not for Empire. There were just so many different guitar sounds there. I can buy that some of the cleans are a JC120. Definitely some H3000 and a Tri-Stereo Chorus in there, too, as well as some Lexicon... I'm just talking guitar sounds. So, I can believe that they just programmed their racks and were probably using the same effects rig on the tour.

Of course, I don't really know, but I could see some Soldano in DeGarmo's Empire tones. I have seen some pictures from either that tour or one not very long afterwards where there were a few Wizards in the backline (likely under the stage, at least from the picture I saw). I could see that, too.

I would be really curious to find out, though. Empire's been one of my favorite albums from that era since it came out. I've been listening to Queensryche since Rage for Order and was blown away the first time I heard Mindcrime. Great stuff, up to an including Empire. :rock:

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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 2:47am 
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Agreed Empire has a fantastic sound in every aspect and Mindcrime still is one of the best albums ever. With Empire you hear it was big business back then. For sure an expensive production. Rock still mattered. Man I muss those times!


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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 8:18am 
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What's a Seymour Duncan Screaming EAGLE ??
Does he mean Demon ?
I always thought they used JB's.


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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 8:53am 
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From what I could snoop out on the net, as previously mentioned DeGarmo used a Soldano Pre with a Carvin FET900 and Wilton used a Wizard Pre and ADA MP1 also with a Carvin FET900. Mindcrime was all modded 2203s. Roland JC120 was also used for cleans.

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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 9:25am 
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Mailman1971 wrote:
Saw that tour. Suicidal tendencies opened.
It was a great show. Crystal clear everything.
:rock:

Yep. Still the best show I've every heard. Phenomenal sound. ..even in the Toledo Sports Arena box. :rock:

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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 11:24am 
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Great stuff, we have discussed this before, Willy is right
Saw them multiple times on the Empire tour, it was fantastic. My first exposure to live performances where the effects spilled over when patch changes were done, I can remember thinking "dam.... How did they do that??" Sadly, my Tinkertoy setup could not pull that off :lol: :LOL:
I have to say my pinnacle for them was Mindcrime, it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen live up to that point, we would travel very long distances to see it over and over..
Not to take anything away from the Rage for Order tour, at that point, it was one of the best live performances I'd ever seen. DeGarmo's backups were flawless. They were always flawless... Seeing Rage live was different than anything I'd ever seen done live.. Huge impact on me musically, they actually made you think about things they spoke of.
For whatever they became later, there was definitely a time when they were my number 1...
It was sad to see them fall apart.. And then Geoff Tate become a circus act.
Sad..






Wonder what Chris is doing now.. I know he did some piloting for a bit
His departure was the beginning of the end.. It was never the same after that. Not to say there has not been some cool tunes here and there, but Chris's input into the songwriting was sorely missed

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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 11:49am 
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Metalone72 wrote:
That album was awesome! I wish there were pictures of their racks somewhere but I cannot find anything on the web.


...so thank god I´m here ...
LP Freak wrote:
Here’s what I found.

this is from Guitar Player Nov 1991 (ah...the good old days)

Guitarworld Nov 90, not 91

Attachment:
Guitarworld.jpg
Guitarworld.jpg [ 636.66 KiB | Viewed 990 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 11:54am 
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i saw Degarmo a few years back in a music video for his Daughter. he was playing acoustic. she is a singer.


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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 12:22pm 
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I went to their studio and saw them rehearse for the Empire tour .
They played all of operation mind crime , even had Pamela Moore there.
I dont remember the amps they were using ?
I do remember looking at the Bob Bradshaw floor switching unit Chris Degarmo had.
They sounded so amazing !
My moms boyfriend built flangers for them and worked on their amps.
I can't remember if he modded them ?
Next time I talk to him , I will see if he remembers what they were using then ?


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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 12:40pm 
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Is your mom’s boyfriend Erickson Audio ?


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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 12:47pm 
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Love this thread!! :yes:

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JTyson wrote:
...Wonder what Chris is doing now.. I know he did some piloting for a bit
His departure was the beginning of the end.. It was never the same after that. Not to say there has not been some cool tunes here and there, but Chris's input into the songwriting was sorely missed
I believe he's a professional pilot now?

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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 3:28pm 
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Thanks you very much!!!!!!!

Piero the Guitarero wrote:
Metalone72 wrote:
That album was awesome! I wish there were pictures of their racks somewhere but I cannot find anything on the web.


...so thank god I´m here ...
LP Freak wrote:
Here’s what I found.

this is from Guitar Player Nov 1991 (ah...the good old days)

Guitarworld Nov 90, not 91

Attachment:
Guitarworld.jpg


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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 5:58pm 
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Piero the Guitarero wrote:
Metalone72 wrote:
That album was awesome! I wish there were pictures of their racks somewhere but I cannot find anything on the web.


...so thank god I´m here ...
LP Freak wrote:
Here’s what I found.

this is from Guitar Player Nov 1991 (ah...the good old days)

Guitarworld Nov 90, not 91

Attachment:
Guitarworld.jpg


Thank you...I can't find my back issues.

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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 12, 2018 6:14pm 
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yeah. this is a good thread for sure. so at my work i’ve seen queensryche before and after Geoff’s split...and i he guys used kempers now. do they sound good? they sound okay...not as good as they used to. for some reason their tone doesn’t ring out as long or as natural as before.


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PostPosted: Mon, Aug 13, 2018 11:59am 
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What a great album, loved Jet City Woman as well.


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PostPosted: Mon, Aug 13, 2018 3:31pm 
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I haven't heard anything on "Empire" other than the hits and need to revisit that. I remember hearing "Take Hold of the Flame" in high school and was blown away. Later heard "Operation Mindcrime" and obviously that was phenomenal.

That drumbeat in the beginning of Empire before it starts kicking in always gives me chills. It just sounds so different than the typical stuff out there.


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romanianreaper wrote:
I haven't heard anything on "Empire" other than the hits and need to revisit that. I remember hearing "Take Hold of the Flame" in high school and was blown away. Later heard "Operation Mindcrime" and obviously that was phenomenal.

That drumbeat in the beginning of Empire before it starts kicking in always gives me chills. It just sounds so different than the typical stuff out there.

I can't even remember which songs were hits other than Silent Lucidity and Jet City Woman...and Empire. But Della Brown and One and Only were a couple of my faves.


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SpiderWars wrote:
I can't even remember which songs were hits other than Silent Lucidity and Jet City Woman...and Empire. But Della Brown and One and Only were a couple of my faves.


Best I can? :confused:


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PostPosted: Mon, Aug 13, 2018 6:09pm 
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Gonna give this one a listen now.


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crwnedblasphemy wrote:
... but Della Brown is money. i listen to it a lot and try to figure out what effects they are using on the solo parts. it’s like Chorus/Flange/reverb.

In that magazine clip DeGarmo says he used a "TC Spatial Expander for chorusing and flanging effects". Not that they used it here but what does that unit sound like?


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PostPosted: Mon, Aug 13, 2018 8:56pm 
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Just curious what Wizard preamp you guys are talking about?

A slave signal from the head to a poweramp or did Wizard make a rackmnounted pre?

Thanks for your help!


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PostPosted: Mon, Aug 13, 2018 9:07pm 
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I listened to "Empire" again earlier today and the clean sounds definitely had that Pink Floyd vibe. I was thinking "Hey You" or something along those lines. Definitely some killer songs on that and agree about the sound quality. I think I'll always be more of the earlier, more metal stuff but really like everything up to Empire.


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paulyc wrote:
Is your mom’s boyfriend Erickson Audio ?

Yes Rick Erickson was my moms boyfriend.
I have a fender bassman ne modded with a master volume and fix loop back in the late 80's.


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PostPosted: Mon, Aug 13, 2018 11:59pm 
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As a teenager it was pretty cool !
Chris Degarmo came to our house a few times to pick up and drop off amps.
He had a sweet orange 69 GTO Judge.
I also went back stage for Rage For Order tour with AC/DC Queensryche was great then as well. Truly though the studio experience was the best !!


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PostPosted: Tue, Aug 14, 2018 1:23am 
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SpiderWars wrote:
In that magazine clip DeGarmo says he used a "TC Spatial Expander for chorusing and flanging effects". Not that they used it here but what does that unit sound like?



TC Electronic wrote:
The 2290 has unfortunatly been discontinued, but you can find the essential
features like spatial Dynamic Delay and Classic TC Choruses in Products like
D-Two, G major2 Nova and G-System.




You can hear the effect on the 2290 fanpage, clip 4 (widening effect)
http://www.tc2290.com/audio.htm

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SpiderWars wrote:
crwnedblasphemy wrote:
... but Della Brown is money. i listen to it a lot and try to figure out what effects they are using on the solo parts. it’s like Chorus/Flange/reverb.

In that magazine clip DeGarmo says he used a "TC Spatial Expander for chorusing and flanging effects". Not that they used it here but what does that unit sound like?


The 1210 sounds great, it has a great stereo spread without being too wobbly. The thing is that as one side modulates down the other side modulates up, so you can get a lot of depth and widening without being too obviously sea-sick about it, and of all the analog choruses it is probably the best one for heavy distorted tones. It was in every rack from the late 80s and onward.

The 2290 is something different, though, it´s a digital mono delay with reverse polarity on the second output to get a different sort of spread. Also great, but something else than the 1210.

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PostPosted: Tue, Aug 14, 2018 1:35am 
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The best I can ....
One of my favorite songs!!
‘Gonna get close to you ‘
Probably my favorite.
So dark Erie. :rock:

But operation mind crime is the best overall. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Tue, Aug 14, 2018 7:09pm 
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My first concert was the Empire tour as well. Still one of the best! It inspired me so much.

I just rediscovered this album about 3 weeks ago. I'd forgotten how amazing it is.

Somebody mentioned hits. I remember seeing videos for Another Rainy Night, and Anybody Listening as well. I'm not sure how far up the charts they went. The whole album is so great. There's not a bad song. I don't care for Silent Lucidity...but it's still a great song. My singer is a lot younger than me, and I was playing her this album saying that "back in my day....you could hear music likes on the radio and MTV."

Great days back then!


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PostPosted: Tue, Aug 14, 2018 10:13pm 
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Honestly I liked Mindcrime better.... Mindcrime would be in the running for my fave album ever, though.


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PostPosted: Wed, Aug 15, 2018 3:52am 
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What I LOVED about Mindcrime was the songs told a story.
One led to the other. Fucking classic!!

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PostPosted: Wed, Aug 15, 2018 4:01pm 
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Just saw them live last week here locally and Wilton still has amazing tone. The singer they have is outstanding as well, actually the whole band is. I was beyond impressed.

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PostPosted: Thu, Aug 16, 2018 6:48am 
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Mindcrime will be my favorite, but all the albums up to and including Empire have some great ones.

Screaming in Digital is an underrated one for me off of Rage.

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