Mix critique: getting low end right, mixers get in here.

[VESmedic]

I’m using a track I recently did but remixed from
The ground up using some new ideas and things I’ve never used before, namely mid/processing, and a different approach to bass. Used the darkglass into a pultec eq, into an 1176 comp, and I can tell this combo is godly and I see why it’s used, although I’m not quite there yet.

The biggest problem I run into is identifying if the bass itself is too loud, OR if there is just too much low end Information in the bass itself. Any tips with this? There multiband compression all over this, albeit probably not where it should be, and some mid/side processing on the guitars, and overall mix bus with ozone. Extremely powerful tools, and easy to get carried away with. In this mix I love how in your face the drums are, and the bass is constant and glued tightly to the mix and never falls out, however it gets slightly out of control at times, even with a nice cut around 100-160hz and multiband compression. Anyways, any tips are appreciated.

Guitars:

Rhodes colossus
Peppers dirty tree
Mesa OS
Unidyne sm57
BAE 1073

Bass:

darkglass b7k
Pultec eq
Mc77/1176 comp
BX limiter

Enjoy!

https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/Z4BB8gG5RyrXG5Ct5

 

[DanTravis62]

Whether or not the low end is right is almost all a matter of taste. I think it sounds brutal and great. But I like old school death metal. And this feels like an extension of that.

If you were going for a slick, modern, satellite radio metal sound, then yes, there's too much high and high mid information on the drums, and too much low end on the guitars.

Personally though, the aggressiveness and "imperfect" ness gives it a way more interesting sound than like an Andy sneap type thing.

 

[VESmedic]

Whether or not the low end is right is almost all a matter of taste. I think it sounds brutal and great. But I like old school death metal. And this feels like an extension of that.

If you were going for a slick, modern, satellite radio metal sound, then yes, there's too much high and high mid information on the drums, and too much low end on the guitars.

Personally though, the aggressiveness and "imperfect" ness gives it a way more interesting sound than like an Andy sneap type thing.

man I think that’s indirectly the best comment I’ve ever gotten! Haha thanks man.

And I agree, it’s for sure a matter of taste. It’s amazing how much the low end shapes the entire and feel of a track. I think of course my biggest issue, and it’s an obvious “duh” one: my room isn’t treated, and you can’t eq/mix what you can’t hear. Everything below about 125 hz or so in a room like mine is a complete guess, luck, and knowing how well my room translates to other systems, and “guessing” for lack of a better term. I’m building a new house right now, and building a true studio that’s going to be sick I think, but that’s not right now unfortunately. I guess constantly making progress like I believe I am is saying something and all i can ask for.

The bottom end is often to me what separates a pro from an amateur. It’s easy to get mids and highs right ( relatively I guess) but low end is just such a pain, and so many variables, so many different ways to fix issues or get to some breed you want to go, knowing how to is the hard part.

but I’m like you, for the most part I can’t stand what modern producers are doing: flat drums, no high end on guitars…. Safe… everyone mixes safe nowadays, and it’s destroying metal as a whole. The records of the past 30 years had engineers taking chances and making things nasty, giving vibe and character. Much of that is gone these days. Too many people wanting to use other peoples sounds, presets, and are afraid to go against the grain, and against what they think Glenn fricker and non pro youtubers are telling them they should do.

 

[DanTravis62]

man I think that’s indirectly the best comment I’ve ever gotten! Haha thanks man.

And I agree, it’s for sure a matter of taste. It’s amazing how much the low end shapes the entire and feel of a track. I think of course my biggest issue, and it’s an obvious “duh” one: my room isn’t treated, and you can’t eq/mix what you can’t hear. Everything below about 125 hz or so in a room like mine is a complete guess, luck, and knowing how well my room translates to other systems, and “guessing” for lack of a better term. I’m building a new house right now, and building a true studio that’s going to be sick I think, but that’s not right now unfortunately. I guess constantly making progress like I believe I am is saying something and all i can ask for.

The bottom end is often to me what separates a pro from an amateur. It’s easy to get mids and highs right ( relatively I guess) but low end is just such a pain, and so many variables, so many different ways to fix issues or get to some breed you want to go, knowing how to is the hard part.

but I’m like you, for the most part I can’t stand what modern producers are doing: flat drums, no high end on guitars…. Safe… everyone mixes safe nowadays, and it’s destroying metal as a whole. The records of the past 30 years had engineers taking chances and making things nasty, giving vibe and character. Much of that is gone these days. Too many people wanting to use other peoples sounds, presets, and are afraid to go against the grain, and against what they think Glenn fricker and non pro youtubers are telling them they should do.

Dude I couldn't agree more about modern Glenn fricker type mixes. And about low end too.

I specifically force myself to work with random, different, "handicaps" in all my demo tracks to force myself to think outside the box as far as mixing metal.

"No time based effects," or "no lo or high pass filters," "no EQ," no compression, etc.

I know that with access to any good studio, I can get something to sound great - and I have. But as far as practice and at home stuff, I feel like I learn more with more intuition and less gear and "rules."

 

[VESmedic]

Dude I couldn't agree more about modern Glenn fricker type mixes. And about low end too.

I specifically force myself to work with random, different, "handicaps" in all my demo tracks to force myself to think outside the box as far as mixing metal.

"No time based effects," or "no lo or high pass filters," "no EQ," no compression, etc.

I know that with access to any good studio, I can get something to sound great - and I have. But as far as practice and at home stuff, I feel like I learn more with more intuition and less gear and "rules."

exactly. No rules. The best of today even will tell you that, the real ones, the guys who aren’t afraid to push the envelope and the “rule book”. But then guys on the internet regurgitate what they saw these guys say once, take as gospel and rules, and think that’s the only way. And I’m totally guilty of this at times too, don’t get wrong. Something doesn’t “look” right eq wise, or you do something in a different order than what is considered gospel, or whatever. I am also guilty of this too, but being new it’s hard to waver from “ rules” because you don’t really know what you’re doing or why you’re doing it yet, so it’s a double edged sword I guess. You gotta know when to do things before you can start being that “free” if that makes sense… but I’ll never waver from my sm57 rants… there’s a reason it works on guitars and always does haha!

I love the idea of purposely creating road blocks for yourself, it only makes you better. This is why I don’t get carried away with all these crazy YouTube tutorials on mixing and these absolutely insane ridiculous plug-in chains these guys come up with. I know a few of the best of the best today, and they never ever ever have plug-in chains or processing chains that complicated that these guys put up. If you gotta do that much, your source tones are weak, or somethin else is wrong. Like these guys obsessed with side chaining the kick to the bass. If the kick is too loud during double bass parts, automate it the fuck down, this shit doesn’t need to be that complicated. Something else that, again, I can tell you some of the best today have never done on one record. But if it works, and you like complicated, then by all means do what you want I guess.

People need to spend more time worrying about gritting phenomenal takes and killer source tones, get it right at the source, in front of the mic, before it gets in the box, that’s where the gold is, but the new kids don’t understand this. Your favorite tones are great because they were great at the input/source, almost always.

 

[DanTravis62]

but I’ll never waver from my sm57 rants… there’s a reason it works on guitars and always does haha!

Right there with you. I use a combination of 2 57s in Fredman clip and a 421 in literally everything on guitar ? even for vintage style or clean tones - I just adjust mic volumes.

Your favorite tones are great because they were great at the input/source, almost always.

I wish I could sticky this on every recording forum or YouTube comment section ever.
Alot of guitarists (especially younger home recorders) assume you can make anything sound like anything with eq - be that an IR, or the Larry sitting in my living room.

It doesn't work like that.

 

[Donnie B.]

Do you have a full band real time analyzer for your DAW?
Something with high resolution and the ability to smooth the signal??

 

[Tone Monster]

VES…why are you avoiding treating your room? You’re obviously addicted to this stuff. Do it! It’s not that expensive! I had an amazing set up at my previous home and it was amazing. Totally worth it. I know all about the “guessing game” you’re talking about! Sounds great (checks in car)…dogshit!!! Lol. ??‍??‍??‍

 

[stratjacket]

I’m on my iPad so listening wouldn’t do it justice. But treating your room is easy, pretty quick and pretty fun. I spent about $500 and made 29 acoustic panels, each at 2’ x 4’ and 4 inches deep. Highly recommended. There are a million videos on YouTube showing how to make them. It’s so simple. Then Search for proper placement.
When I finished treating my room, I brought my wife in and let her listen, even she was amazed. I could hear shit on songs I never heard before, songs that I had listened to for 20 years. Seriously, it will help you a million times more than the expensive gear.

You can take it with you when you move, that is what I did when I took a job in Louisville. They are not heavy and can hang on the wall like a simple picture frame would. I put a small 1x2 board across the back, installed a little hanger and done.

Here is a pic right after I put it together. Room sounded amazing .

 

[VESmedic]

VES…why are you avoiding treating your room? You’re obviously addicted to this stuff. Do it! It’s not that expensive! I had an amazing set up at my previous home and it was amazing. Totally worth it. I know all about the “guessing game” you’re talking about! Sounds great (checks in car)…dogshit!!! Lol. ??‍??‍??‍

Haha not avoiding! It’s simply a time and effort thing right now: I see no point in trying to treat my room when I’m moving in less than 90 days. My new place I have a 20x18 room all to myself, that I am going to treat professionally when I move in. Im then also having a commercial shed built out back behind my house where all my cabs are going to go, building that to be as sound proof/isolation as possible, and running power/speaker/mic cables out to it through a chase coming out of the house and under ground to it, all powered by a few Dynamount robotic mic systems. All my heads in my room, completely isolated away from cabs, and I crank as loud as I possibly want, should be a good time. So I’m just focused on the future honestly and not thinking about right now, even though obviously I’m still trying to do stuff “right now” at my house haha.

 

[VESmedic]

Do you have a full band real time analyzer for your DAW?
Something with high resolution and the ability to smooth the signal??

Oh yea for sure, but I just find it’s not that simple just turning down lows on the mix buss per say. Maybe it’s not the low end that’s the problem, maybe it’s the attack/release settings on the dynamic eq( too long or too short)? Or maybe there’s too much low end in the sides vs the middle, or maybe just the kick is too loud, or maybe the bass has some frequency I didn’t catch, or maybe the bassist sucked and no amount of comp or limiting can control the low end, etc. for me it just doesn’t seem to be that simple, because I still don’t realllyyyyy know what I’m doing yet haha. Turning up or down or sideways one thing almost always effects something else, good or bad, in my limited experience.

 

[VESmedic]

I’m on my iPad so listening wouldn’t do it justice. But treating your room is easy, pretty quick and pretty fun. I spent about $500 and made 29 acoustic panels, each at 2’ x 4’ and 4 inches deep. Highly recommended. There are a million videos on YouTube showing how to make them. It’s so simple. Then Search for proper placement.
When I finished treating my room, I brought my wife in and let her listen, even she was amazed. I could hear shit on songs I never heard before, songs that I had listened to for 20 years. Seriously, it will help you a million times more than the expensive gear.

You can take it with you when you move, that is what I did when I took a job in Louisville. They are not heavy and can hang on the wall like a simple picture frame would. I put a small 1x2 board across the back, installed a little hanger and done.

Here is a pic right after I put it together. Room sounded amazing .
View attachment 85609

looks great man. Looks like you did it right too, nothing less than 4 inches thick, that’s the way it’s gotta be. This is similar to the ik building in, excerpt probbaky 3 feet wider or so on each side, and I’ll be in front of a window ( cringe) but I’ll make it work the best I can, but this is basically the setup I’ll be going for I think acoustically. Bass absorption floor to ceiling up front, 4-6 inch rock wool panels on the sides, and probbaky diffuser panels on the back wall. And the cloud of course

 

[Donnie B.]

Turning up or down or sideways one thing almost always effects something else, good or bad, in my limited experience.

You just described the process of trying to design a loudspeaker.

 

[ZEN Amps]

Your favorite tones are great because they were great at the input/source, almost always.

I'm not sure a truer statement could be made, for any part of the production process.

I think it sounds great, and the low end feels about right. At the other end though I think you could do with some more cymbals, feels like they're getting a little swallowed by the rest of the track. Very tidy work though, tough as shit!

 

[Smash]

I am going to follow this thread. I just press record and play. If i think i have too much lowend, i just adjust the eq on my amp and do another take. I am in the stoneage. lmao

 

[panhead]

Im old school so imo there`s not much you can do to fuck up a mix with that type music.

 

[ZEN Amps]

On second listen maybe have a look at 250-350Hz on the bass guitar. This is a pretty boxy area and a cut there or the multiband hitting that a little firmer can help with clarity and assisting the kick.

Also, if you're using the pultec for broad, gentle boosting - try if after the 1176

 

[rottingcorpse]

Ok,gonna go out on a limb here and go old school info I learned way back in the mid 80's.

Take your room and monitors out of the equation and use the best set of studio headphones you can afford. Keep the level reasonable so as not to blow your ears out too quickly from volume fatigue. (duh)

Now A/B your mix with your favorite pro mixed metal albums. Set it up where you can quickly switch back and forth between your stuff and the stuff you want to mimic.

At that point it's a matter of eq to try to match your stuff. You can use shelving eqs sparingly, or graphics to get closer...but if you can get good with a parametric you can really dial shit in.

I spent so many years with great studio cans on that I really got good at working parametric eqs. I know that this way works from doing it a lot. Once you get it dialed in this way,when you throw it up on the mains you will be blown away.

But I'm an old deaf man now who hates modern technology. WTF do I know anymore.

 

[VESmedic]

On second listen maybe have a look at 250-350Hz on the bass guitar. This is a pretty boxy area and a cut there or the multiband hitting that a little firmer can help with clarity and assisting the kick.

Also, if you're using the pultec for broad, gentle boosting - try if after the 1176

thanks zen. I gotta try the pultec after the eq for sure, I just wanted to control it as much as possible, and thought that would get it out of control too fast running it after my comp and limiter. Thanks for the input!

 

[dainbramage0]

Mixing is so subjective it is hard to say if there is too much or too little of something unless its clipping obscenely.

If you can hear all the elements of the mix on a variety of listening devices (headphones, car stereo, computer speakers, home stereo, your mix monitors) then I'd say it really is just a matter of taste from there.

Your mixes are pretty awesome as they are and the min/maxing you're looking for might require the new treated room you mentioned.

I've released material that wasn't mixed as nicely as your stuff here. If anything from the clip in the OP the kick drum sounds a bit high in the mix for my liking, more so than the bass guitar. But then I like to hear the bass guitar in a mix, the upper mid djangle and the low thunder. I like to hear the kick but not have it too up front for faster kick runs