Free speech?

[Stumplegriltskin]

These assholes celebrating murder are getting fired. Charlie Kirk debating in open public with college kids gets killed for that. There’s no comparison.

Too many gamma rays dude.

People celebrated Osama Bin Ladens supposed murder. Depends on the person who got murdered I suppose? I'm just asking questions and provoking some critical thinking. BARKBAR

 

[MadAsAHatter]

I can't find the clip, but an HR person put it exactly. What she said went something like this.

What people fail to understand is that even though your free time is yours and you can say and do what you want; if you can be connected back to your employer you are a representative of that company. The employer has the right to terminate your employment if they feel you are not being a good representative of the company or its values. This is true even if you say or do something during non-work hours if you can be connected back to said company.

Of course there are exceptions where speech/actions are protected by law, but this is the general way of things. It's the same thing as when some suburban soccer mom gets fired for Karening out in the middle of Wal-Mart and their employer finds out about it by whatever means.

What it boils down to is every action has consequences.

 

[7704A]

It's their right, as is the consequences. Say whatever you want and see what happens...that's the general rule.

All too often "freedom of speech, not freedom from consequences" seems to be used as an excuse to make there be consequences, i.e. retaliation for speech, or to justify those who do. I'm not stating that that is happening in this thread, or even in the general kerfuffle going on now, I've been a bit too busy to bother with the news, I'm just saying: be careful. I've seen that premise get misused before.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Getting fired for compelled speech as a part of an actual law is completely different both in scope and severity than people in places of public trust celebrating literal death and murder - i was unaware that pointing out this is a false equivalence would be controversial.

Nice try though

Why do you have to compare the two, just answer the question. If you are someone who is bothered by the celebration of his death, how would you feel about getting fired for purposely calling someone something that they don’t want to be called?
It’s not a complicated question. Don’t answer it if ya don’t want to

 

[Laputan Machine]

I wonder how the people who feel that someone should get fired for Charlie opinions would feel about getting fired for not using someone’s preferred pronouns

I don't think "I think it's awesome that X was murdered and I want to see more people like him murdered" is in the same category as being opposed to being forced to entertain mentally ill people's sexual fetishes.

 

[Stumplegriltskin]

I can't find the clip, but an HR person put it exactly. What she said went something like this.

What people fail to understand is that even though your free time is yours and you can say and do what you want; if you can be connected back to your employer you are a representative of that company. The employer has the right to terminate your employment if they feel you are not being a good representative of the company or its values. This is true even if you say or do something during non-work hours if you can be connected back to said company.

Of course there are exceptions where speech/actions are protected by law, but this is the general way of things. It's the same thing as when some suburban soccer mom gets fired for Karening out in the middle of Wal-Mart and their employer finds out about it by whatever means.

What it boils down to is every action has consequences.

It's not about that. Maybe 1/4 of it is that, but 3/4 of it is the need or want to control people 24/7, which is the number fucking 1 problem on the planet. People that seek to exert control over others because it's the only thing that makes them feel alive, because they have nothing going on in their own life. Also, people are really dumb for using their real identity online. Never understood that.

 

[Stumplegriltskin]

Ha!!!! Here it is.

Charlie Kirk championed free speech as a fundamental American value. So, it’s sad—and ironic—that the murder of the 31-year-old conservative activist has triggered a fresh round of censorship, alarmingly aimed at teachers and other government employees. Educators in a dozen states have been fired or placed on leave for online statements that criticized Kirk or expressed approval of his death.

 

[BABMusic]

Generally speaking, I'm not in favor of people getting fired for speaking their opinions, including disgusting ugly statements. I'm actually surprised that people did get fired, given that Kirk was seen as being more on the right. But employers can do what they want, and that's just the reality.

I do remember back in 2020 when George Floyd died and I simply wanted to ask questions and find out if the media was telling the truth. Of course they were not, but I almost faced consequences just for simply not toeing the line with the racist narrative the media was selling. I also had to hold my tongue when all these "experts" at my company were telling us in Zoom videos that the vaccine was safe and that all the science proved it was the best thing to do. I would have been fired if I said anything in those meetings, even though I was 100% factually correct. Now, I get that celebrating someone's death is not the same as challenging a narrative, but still, be careful with this sword, because it cuts both ways

 

[Dan Gleesak]

I don't think "I think it's awesome that X was murdered and I want to see more people like him murdered" is in the same category as being opposed to being forced to entertain mentally ill people's sexual fetishes.

I’m not asking anyone to compare the two. What’s with you guys?

 

[psychodave]

 

[Robostyle]

See, I don't get this either. IMO, my employer has zero say in what I do when I'm not there. Just like the weed testing BS. I don't smoke the stuff anymore, and my job does not test for it, but employers dictating what you do off ours is an invasion on your right as a human. Next thing you know, employers will be dictating what you eat at home and how many beers you drink on the weekend. Complete fucking BS if you ask me. It's bad enough you see the fucking people you work with more than your own family. F WORK.

I'm not saying that i necessarily agree with it, only that it is what it is.
Employers implement their policies, to protect their business and the interests of that business.
As far as i know, it's perfectly legal for them to do so.

 

[Robostyle]

I wonder how the people who feel that someone should get fired for Charlie opinions would feel about getting fired for not using someone’s preferred pronouns

Nobody died from not using pronouns.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

So, all of a sudden, you can't say anything bad about Charlie Kirk? You can even get fired from your job? Isn't that a violation of free speech? Before I get bashed. I'm neither a Charlie Kirk supporter, nor do I hate the guy. He's just a guy who argued with idiots, IMO. But all of a sudden, there seems to be a crusade against people who bash him. I'm wondering why. I don't understand the folks that celebrate someone getting shot in the neck and bleeding out. But isn't that their right?

I'm pretty liberal and I think Charlie Kirk was an awful person, just so you know where I'm coming from.

It is perfectly within an employer's right to fire anybody who takes a public political stance for or against pretty much anything. The 1st amendment only protects you from government retaliation. It is unconstitutional to put anyone in prison for making an opinion public.

But a company can absolutely fire your ass for it. Freedom of speech just means freedom from governmental consequences, not all consequences.

 

[Robostyle]

People celebrated Osama Bin Ladens supposed murder. Depends on the person who got murdered I suppose? I'm just asking questions and provoking some critical thinking. BARKBAR

Comparing CK to OBL is a huge stretch imho

 

[kmanick]

and how many conservatives were doxed for supporting Trump? how many conservatives lost their well being for supporting trump? is this only supposed to work one way? If my kids were still in school and I found out that their teachers were celebrating an assassination, regardless of who it was. I would not want them any where near my kids. there is a morality/ethical thing here that does not translate to using "pronouns", c'mon now that's pretty weak.

 

[Stumplegriltskin]

and how many conservatives were doxed for supporting Trump? how many conservatives lost their well being for supporting trump? is this only supposed to work one way? If my kids were still in school and I found out that their teachers were celebrating an assassination, regardless of who it was. I would not want them any where near my kids. there is a morality/ethical thing here that does not translate to using "pronouns", c'mon now that's pretty weak.

Give it a bit. Soon it will be highly illegal to refer to someone without using the proper pronouns. Matter of fact, people will have their pronoun tattooed to their foreheads.

I have friends that are liberals, friends that love trump. Everyone bashes the shit out of each other and we take it. I'm not on either side and I tell them they're all fucking idiots for enabling the circus side show act called politics. They think I'm the one that's fucked up

 

[Stumplegriltskin]

Comparing CK to OBL is a huge stretch imho

Little bit? HAH!!!
But someone still died. Pretend you knew nothing about either one. But celebrated one death over the other. What's the difference? I realize that I do not think like most normal people.

 

[MadAsAHatter]

It's not about that. Maybe 1/4 of it is that, but 3/4 of it is the need or want to control people 24/7, which is the number fucking 1 problem on the planet. People that seek to exert control over others because it's the only thing that makes them feel alive, because they have nothing going on in their own life. Also, people are really dumb for using their real identity online. Never understood that.

I wouldn't deny there are employers (or bosses) who want to exert control over everyone and everything, but I think you're conflating 2 separate issues on the topic of speech.

A company can't force you to do anything during your free time. Stupid example but it illustrates a point... They can't force you to stay home all day on your time off and fire you for going grocery shopping. That's why there are things in place for wrongful termination. They may want to control you 24/7, but they can't in that aspect.

What you do on your own time is done of your own free will; no coercion from your employer but you can still be held accountable. Another dumb example to illustrate this point. Let's say you kick over a kid's lemonade stand and everyone knows you work for company X. The company is now associated with you and by extension your actions, even if on your own time. That can equate to a loss of revenue for them, now you're a liability, and they can fire you for that.

Try to look at it from the perspective of the employer, even one who doesn't want you to be a slave to their company. They can't make you do anything you don't want to do on your free time, but can hold you accountable for your actions if it is a liability for them, even a potential one.

Actions have consequences, it's kinda the way the world does and has worked.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Nobody died from not using pronouns.

That isn’t what I’m asking. Why make this so complicated?

 

[TheGreatGreen]

and how many conservatives were doxed for supporting Trump? how many conservatives lost their well being for supporting trump? is this only supposed to work one way? If my kids were still in school and I found out that their teachers were celebrating an assassination, regardless of who it was. I would not want them any where near my kids. there is a morality/ethical thing here that does not translate to using "pronouns", c'mon now that's pretty weak.

Something I'll say about that is there is a pretty wide range between "posting a video of yourself dancing in the street because his neck was exploded in public" and "saying you don't like what he stood for" and I think it's worth considering that saying you didn't like his message is not the same thing as saying you're glad he was killed.

For example I don't condone the violence and I am not happy anyone, including Kirk, was assassinated for their political beliefs. But I am glad he is no longer spreading what was in my opinion his hateful messaging wrapped in pseudo-Christian-guilding.

But there's no way in hell I'm posting anything about it online under my real name, and I think pretty much anyone who isn't an "influencer," meaning they don't have any financial incentive to post anything, but still posts support for his death online under their real name... I think that can be used as a basic litmus test for their lack of good decision making capabilities.