I finally figured out why I can't get along with a Mesa Recto

MadAsAHatter said:
It's been interesting reading all the comments. I've noticed a number of people have mentioned putting a tight boost in front or setting EQ to extremes like turning the bass all the way down to get the right sound. It makes me wonder if you have to go to such extremes is it really the right amp for what you're playing.
The way I approach an amp is if I have to set EQ too far off neutral it probably doesn't have the right core voicing to start with. I think of adjusting the EQ as finding the sweet spot on the sweep range and compensating for room acoustics, not to try to overhaul the voicing. For me that's usually between 10 & 2 if neutral is at noon. Same thing with adding a boost or something in front. I look at a boost as goosing the front end a bit to push the amp a little harder to stand out for a solo or something. Not to try to make a loose amp tighter. Basically, if I'm at the point where I'm trying to forcibly compensate for something that's part of the amps core character then it's not the right one for me. Not to say it's bad, just not what fits me personally.
I play a good bit of thrash metal or faster paced melodic rhythm which is why a recto doesn't fit for me. I like something more focused and it just didn't agree with my playing. If I'm fighting the amp's core character then I know it's not voiced the way I want and I'm not going to be able to bring out its full potential. With a Recto I wasn't able to define what I was fighting until I watched that comparison video. Like I said it's a great amp with an iconic sound and is perfect for a lot of players. For me, not so much. It's time to move on and now I can define what I doesn't fit.
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I think…. That’s a pretty terrible philosophy and viewpoint on getting tones personally. There are no rules in this, whatever works, works. Just because you use extreme eq settings on a recto or xyz amp to get the tone you want, doesn’t mean another amp can actually do or get the sound you get with the amp set like that. Try all you want, you’ll never get another amp to sound like my recto with a dirty tree for instance. Yes it cuts the bass going into the front end and yes it makes it response sort of like other amps when you start doing that, but nothing else is going to sound exactly like that in the least. Don’t box yourself into thinking you shouldn’t have to do this this and this and I can only set my amp around. Also, pushing the extremes of an amps eq doesn’t “overhaul the amps voicing” by any means. I almost always record my 5150 with the bass and resonance on 10, and I assure you it still sounds like a 5150, no matter what I do. It’s not about trying to make the amp something it’s not. It’s not about getting the biggest thickest sound I can and the most negative feedback ( presence and resonance controls) I can from the amp going into the DAW, because I can always cut what I don’t need. Boosting in the DAW doesn’t always sound nearly as natural. I couldn’t care less where the dials are set at on the amp if it sounds great. It doesn’t make any sense in the least to think “ well, im not gonna go past noon really on the amps eq, Because if I do, somethings wrong”….With that philosophy all amps would have to have the same exact eq etc, which we all know the recto is anything but “normal” with its eq.
 
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VESmedic said:
Exactly…. This genre is all about extreme, and making things extreme sounding and bigger than life.
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Right. Go back and listen to Pantera compared to today’s tones. Kind of pales in comparison to initially.
 
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VESmedic said:
I think…. That’s a pretty terrible philosophy and viewpoint on getting tones personally.............. Don’t box yourself into thinking you shouldn’t have to do this this and this and I can only set my amp around. Neutral settings etc to get what I want or it’s the wrong amp for me…nonsense.
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Jack Luminous said:
If you're talking about anything metal, I think that question has already been answered positively numerous times in the last 30 years.
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VESmedic said:
Exactly…. This genre is all about extreme, and making things extreme sounding and bigger than life.
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I guess I didn't get my point across well enough. Probably because I tend to use words in certain context but forget to define the context. I'm guessing you focused on the part where I said too far off neutral and the example, but interpreted it in a different way than intended.

Neutral meaning the amp's "sweet spot" where it opens up and shows it full character. Not neutral meaning noon. I used the example IF neutral is at noon I'm somewhere between 10 & 2. In the intended context it was meant to demonstrate not going too far off neutral. Neutral again meaning the "sweet spot". Too far off and you're fighting the natural character. Neutral might be 10 o'clock. So for me after going more than about 2 or so notches off that feels like I'm fighting the amp instead of working with it.

Depending on what & how you play some amps work well for you and others don't. Yes, metal is an extreme genera; Extreme meaning big and bold, not physical amp settings. I'd define extreme in that context as it relates to this discussion as for example an amp is mid focused so I'm bringing that character out in a bold way. As opposed to this amp doesn't have enough mids so cranking the mid knob all the way up then an EQ in the loop to boost mids, then another 3 or 4 mid boost on top of that. Yeah that's extreme, but not extreme in the way it's meant in the metal genera.

To go back using that example... If you need to do all that to get the mid range sound you want, it seems like your fighting the amp's natural voicing. To me it would be better to have an amp with the character I want and work with it rather than fight to compensate for something.

So, The overall point I am trying to make is find the amps natural character and work with it to bring out the best in you and it. Don't try to force an amp to be something it's not.
 
VESmedic said:
I think…. That’s a pretty terrible philosophy and viewpoint on getting tones personally. There are no rules in this, whatever works, works. Just because you use extreme eq settings on a recto or xyz amp to get the tone you want, doesn’t mean another amp can actually do or get the sound you get with the amp set like that. Try all you want, you’ll never get another amp to sound like my recto with a dirty tree for instance. Yes it cuts the bass going into the front end and yes it makes it response sort of like other amps when you start doing that, but nothing else is going to sound exactly like that in the least. Don’t box yourself into thinking you shouldn’t have to do this this and this and I can only set my amp around. Also, pushing the extremes of an amps eq doesn’t “overhaul the amps voicing” by any means. I almost always record my 5150 with the bass and resonance on 10, and I assure you it still sounds like a 5150, no matter what I do. It’s not about trying to make the amp something it’s not. It’s not about getting the biggest thickest sound I can and the most negative feedback ( presence and resonance controls) I can from the amp going into the DAW, because I can always cut what I don’t need. Boosting in the DAW doesn’t always sound nearly as natural. I couldn’t care less where the dials are set at on the amp if it sounds great. It doesn’t make any sense in the least to think “ well, im not gonna go past noon really on the amps eq, Because if I do, somethings wrong”….With that philosophy all amps would have to have the same exact eq etc, which we all know the recto is anything but “normal” with its eq.
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I don't care what setting I use, pedals, or other equipment. If I get a sound I'm happy with by setting some eq knobs on an amp at max and others at zero and have to use an eq in the loop and OD out front, that's what I'm gonna do. That's regardless whether it's a $500 amp or a $5000 amp. I play with my ears and take the eyes completely out of the equation.
 
Hey-if you don't like them-you don't like them. I understand. I don;t like Marshalls...(:poke:), or modding marshalls to sound like mesa's.

this is a decent vid though-

 
MadAsAHatter said:
I guess I didn't get my point across well enough. Probably because I tend to use words in certain context but forget to define the context. I'm guessing you focused on the part where I said too far off neutral and the example, but interpreted it in a different way than intended.

Neutral meaning the amp's "sweet spot" where it opens up and shows it full character. Not neutral meaning noon. I used the example IF neutral is at noon I'm somewhere between 10 & 2. In the intended context it was meant to demonstrate not going too far off neutral. Neutral again meaning the "sweet spot". Too far off and you're fighting the natural character. Neutral might be 10 o'clock. So for me after going more than about 2 or so notches off that feels like I'm fighting the amp instead of working with it.

Depending on what & how you play some amps work well for you and others don't. Yes, metal is an extreme genera; Extreme meaning big and bold, not physical amp settings. I'd define extreme in that context as it relates to this discussion as for example an amp is mid focused so I'm bringing that character out in a bold way. As opposed to this amp doesn't have enough mids so cranking the mid knob all the way up then an EQ in the loop to boost mids, then another 3 or 4 mid boost on top of that. Yeah that's extreme, but not extreme in the way it's meant in the metal genera.

To go back using that example... If you need to do all that to get the mid range sound you want, it seems like your fighting the amp's natural voicing. To me it would be better to have an amp with the character I want and work with it rather than fight to compensate for something.

So, The overall point I am trying to make is find the amps natural character and work with it to bring out the best in you and it. Don't try to force an amp to be something it's not.
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I do get what you are saying, I really do. But even still, there are no rules. You’re never gonna boost and tighten up a rectifier to the point that you say, “ well, this just sounds like my jcm800 now”… it’s never gonna happen. So while it may be extreme in the sense that you are taking away part of the inherent nature of the amp, it’s still gonna sound and behave like a recto. And again, the recto always wins for heavy low drop tuned stuff. I have a friend of mine chasing his tail trying to make his omega sound like my rev F and dirty tree that we reamped for one of his songs. Same signal chain into the DAW etc. never gonna happen. It’s just that amp, and it sounds that way because of the sum of the parts of the recto and that pedal and the playing etc. no amp is gonna sound like that, no matter how far I push the recto.
 
MadAsAHatter said:
I guess I didn't get my point across well enough. Probably because I tend to use words in certain context but forget to define the context. I'm guessing you focused on the part where I said too far off neutral and the example, but interpreted it in a different way than intended.

Neutral meaning the amp's "sweet spot" where it opens up and shows it full character. Not neutral meaning noon. I used the example IF neutral is at noon I'm somewhere between 10 & 2. In the intended context it was meant to demonstrate not going too far off neutral. Neutral again meaning the "sweet spot". Too far off and you're fighting the natural character. Neutral might be 10 o'clock. So for me after going more than about 2 or so notches off that feels like I'm fighting the amp instead of working with it.

Depending on what & how you play some amps work well for you and others don't. Yes, metal is an extreme genera; Extreme meaning big and bold, not physical amp settings. I'd define extreme in that context as it relates to this discussion as for example an amp is mid focused so I'm bringing that character out in a bold way. As opposed to this amp doesn't have enough mids so cranking the mid knob all the way up then an EQ in the loop to boost mids, then another 3 or 4 mid boost on top of that. Yeah that's extreme, but not extreme in the way it's meant in the metal genera.

To go back using that example... If you need to do all that to get the mid range sound you want, it seems like your fighting the amp's natural voicing. To me it would be better to have an amp with the character I want and work with it rather than fight to compensate for something.

So, The overall point I am trying to make is find the amps natural character and work with it to bring out the best in you and it. Don't try to force an amp to be something it's not.
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If thats how you feel whatever you do dont get a Mark
 
Fordman65 said:
If the sweet spots are between 10 and 2, why have knobs at all? Amp makers should just set fixed values for the eq and be done with it.
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Not all are between 10 & 2. You should ask the Amp designers, marketers, company heads that question. Some choose to put minimal or no EQ on amps or limit the sweep range. Also not every pickup has the same tonal character. When you take that into consideration, the sweet spot may change because the input signal changed.

Fordman65 said:
There's this notion that an amp should sound great with everything around noon and if it doesn't, we'll then it sucks. Complete garbage. If you set this amp up that way it sounds like a hot mess of flub. I'm guessing that's why a lot of people sell them. They're either too brainwashed to think any other settings would sound better or they're just lazy.
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What I find complete garbage is the assumptions and gross accusations your making here. Or should I assume that every amp you have not liked the sound of is because you were too brainwashed to think on your own or too lazy to try?

Fordman65 said:
Try setting a vintage plexi with everything at noon vs everything on 10 and tell me what sounds better.
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Better is subjective, plus as you turn up the EQ on a plexi it sends more signal to the power tubes pushing them harder and bringing more of their character into play. A lot different circuit than a Mesa.
 
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Beyond Black said:
The biggest Recto mistake in the book is using your eyes and assuming where the knobs should be set. A properly dialed in and boosted Recto is a brutal force to be reckoned with.
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This.

What I heard Mad Hatter saying above is "Well I look at the EQ controls and if they're not set between 10-2 then the amp is not for me / I'm fighting the voicing of the amp."

That might work for Marshalls or Fenders or whatever but Mesas don't work like that. Whether Mark or Recto, Mesa Boogies are notoriously hard to dial in because you HAVE to use your ears, not your eyes. Most people struggle with this. (This is why Mesa has started making amps that are easier to dial in like the Triple Crown and the Badlander.)
 
hellzington said:
This.

What I heard Mad Hatter saying above is "Well I look at the EQ controls and if they're not set between 10-2 then the amp is not for me / I'm fighting the voicing of the amp."

That might work for Marshalls or Fenders or whatever but Mesas don't work like that. Whether Mark or Recto, Mesa Boogies are notoriously hard to dial in because you HAVE to use your ears, not your eyes. Most people struggle with this. (This is why Mesa has started making amps that are easier to dial in like the Triple Crown and the Badlander.)
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And yet, I bet there isn’t one person on the planet that will take the neutered badlander over a good older rectifier!
 
VESmedic said:
I do get what you are saying, I really do. But even still, there are no rules. You’re never gonna boost and tighten up a rectifier to the point that you say, “ well, this just sounds like my jcm800 now”… it’s never gonna happen. So while it may be extreme in the sense that you are taking away part of the inherent nature of the amp, it’s still gonna sound and behave like a recto. And again, the recto always wins for heavy low drop tuned stuff. I have a friend of mine chasing his tail trying to make his omega sound like my rev F and dirty tree that we reamped for one of his songs. Same signal chain into the DAW etc. never gonna happen. It’s just that amp, and it sounds that way because of the sum of the parts of the recto and that pedal and the playing etc. no amp is gonna sound like that, no matter how far I push the recto.
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I think we're on the same page then. Trying to make a Mesa sound like a JCM800 or your friend trying to make his Omega sound like your amp; it's trying to push the amp outside of it's capabilities. Adding the Dirty Tree boost to your revF you're still working within the capabilities of the amp, not trying to force it to something it's not. Like you're implying, an amps character isn't all about the EQ setting. There more to the overall character than just that. Work with it, not against it.
 
hellzington said:
What I heard Mad Hatter saying above is "Well I look at the EQ controls and if they're not set between 10-2 then the amp is not for me / I'm fighting the voicing of the amp."
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Not what I was saying at all..... Read my follow up post #87. I use my ears, not eyes
 
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