GJgo
Well-known member
So here's a suggestion. Rather than stopping with "my people are better than your people", how about adding some knowledge on what you think the better way is? Raising the level of our recording skills will help us all.
NSD! Celestion Redback 4x12. 600W of Awesome.
- Thread starter GJgo
- Start date
Oh, I’m more than happy to share my opinion like everyone else. I’m completely 100 percent trolling this clown because he gets butt hurt when people DO try to help. And if you disagree, that’s cool! I only share what I’ve learned and what I’ve experienced personally.
But since you asked:
This is somewhat of an opinion but it’s somewhat not: 2 microphones on one source will never be perfectly in phase, ever. Despite what anyone tells you, it’s impossible to get things perfectly in phase. However, sometimes this is wanted ! No problem with that whatsoever. The black album guitar tone for instance, is phase city, but that is part of that sound, and a big part of why that tone sounds the way it does. But, this album was also put together by people who knew exactly what they were doing and why. There were microphones at perfectly calculated distances in the room, underground tunnels that were used for reverberation etc. this is a really extreme example, because none of us here are doing that, but I’m just illustrating a point. Two microphones on one source will never have the punch and transient attack that one microphone will on one source, it’s simply physics: with phase cancellation, comes loss of frequencies, which equals loss of punch. Again, not always a bad thing, but here’s the point: if you are blindly putting up two or more microphones on a guitar cabinet when you can’t even get a great sound with one, it’s never going to be better with two, it just causes more problems. So my point as it always is, is get the best tone possible with one microphone, learn how to get great tones with one, learn how minuscule microphone movements impart a huge tonal shift in your tone, and then build upon that knowledge. After all, ALOT of our favorite guitar tones on this forum are done with one microphone in a great spot. That’s all I’m saying. And then as you build knowledge, start adding microphones because you are specifically looking for something different and you know exactly why your doing it and what you are looking for, instead of doing it blind.
As far as sharing knowledge, the vast majority of my posts on this forum have been nothing but that. I get flooded with PM’s asking for help, and I love helping others if I can!
GJgo
Well-known member
I think that all makes a lot of sense, thank you for expanding! Personally I've never cared for 2 mics on 1 cone, however I do like separate mics on different complimentary speakers, and then blend the tone on a mixer.
My amateur ears have the opinion that slant cabs also put the sound out of phase, and there's something about it that's always been grating to me. I know a lot of guys love it though. The only feedback I've had here is "show me a significant metal band that uses a slant cab".
What's your opinion re phase cancellation with a strategy like Jerry Cantrell used with a second mic on the back of the speaker?
...Back to the Redbacks, these speakers have this complexity in the note detail that's really cool. I need to figure out a way to expedite the breaking of these cones. I'm considering hooking them up to a power amp and playing hip hop for a week? LOL Any ideas on good ways to do this?
My amateur ears have the opinion that slant cabs also put the sound out of phase, and there's something about it that's always been grating to me. I know a lot of guys love it though. The only feedback I've had here is "show me a significant metal band that uses a slant cab".
What's your opinion re phase cancellation with a strategy like Jerry Cantrell used with a second mic on the back of the speaker?
...Back to the Redbacks, these speakers have this complexity in the note detail that's really cool. I need to figure out a way to expedite the breaking of these cones. I'm considering hooking them up to a power amp and playing hip hop for a week? LOL Any ideas on good ways to do this?
Your ears aren’t lying to you! You are 100 percent correct slant cabs have more phase going on, because of the relationship and angle of the baffle vs how far the cone moves in a slant cab vs a straight causing a difference in reflections/modes bouncing off the cab of the cab. As far as significant metal bands, I can tell you for a fact almost all of the pre 2009-2010 stuff at audiohammer with suecof and Lewis was recorded with a slant cab. OS and traditional I believe, although the OS wasn’t used nearly as much. It is necessary for some tones though. Check out cannibal corpse the skeletal domain, that is all a Mesa OS cab, and the midrange is very different. Also all of those records were done with (gasp) 2008-2009 boogie cabs and not the praised “pre 2003 cabs” that are all the rage right now. However myself im a fan of straight cabs more often than not personally.
Jbassfunk775
New member
Those Redbacks are really interesting, I’m glad you’re happy enough with em to distinguish your gas attack! I feel the same about deep oversized 2x12” birch ply convertible back cabinets with Alnico Blues and/or Alnico Blue/Gold.. I also have been dying to hear a Ruby Alnico & Alnico Cream in person A/B’d individually and together!! You may have gathered I dig Celestion Alnico’s but man they’re so damn expensive!! Just under 300$ a speaker when speakers are non-returnable is a painful thing if you load it up and absolutely hate it!!
braintheory
Well-known member
The Gold’s are killer imo. Very underrated. The other Alnico’s by them I’m not crazy about unless we’re taking their ‘60’ stuff
braintheory
Well-known member
This is helpful for me as well. I’m a newb with recording and was having trouble trouble getting good sounds using 2 mics on one speaker. Now I know why. What do you guys do though if mic’ing a 112 with 2 mics? I’ve got this special designed 112 cab that sounds almost as big as my 412’s with better tone than my 412’s and so will probably be using mostly that for recording. It’s also physically bigger than a typical 112 if that matters
GJgo
Well-known member
If it were me:
Option A- Get a second cab for the second mic with a complimentary speaker. Take the time to find the sweet spot down to 1/8" placement of each mic on each speaker. Send both mics to a mixer where you blend the balance for best tone, then the line out to the recording interface. Triple track L/C/R and done.
Option B- Drop the mic that doesn't sound as good. Take the time to find the sweet spot down to 1/8" placement of the mic on the speaker. Triple track L/C/R and done.
Option A- Get a second cab for the second mic with a complimentary speaker. Take the time to find the sweet spot down to 1/8" placement of each mic on each speaker. Send both mics to a mixer where you blend the balance for best tone, then the line out to the recording interface. Triple track L/C/R and done.
Option B- Drop the mic that doesn't sound as good. Take the time to find the sweet spot down to 1/8" placement of the mic on the speaker. Triple track L/C/R and done.
braintheory
Well-known member
I could definitely mic both cabs, but would like to see first how to optimally record just that one cab. Believe me, it is not like any other 1 or 212. In many ways it actually sounds fatter than all my 412's (even my Ubercab). I'll have to also learn later how to double and triple track, but I'd again like to do as well as I can without that first before I get into that. I won't have time anytime soon to do any recordings, but when I can will see what I can do
Just a question, have you mic’d both your 112 up and your 4x12, level matched, and compared the two? I’d have a hard time believing a 112 would sound anything like a 4x12, again strictly just because of physics.
braintheory
Well-known member
I have. You’re right they don’t sound the same. The 112 sounds imo a lot better and fatter, but again I’m a newb with recording. I’m not claiming to really know what I’m doing with that yet. It’s a unique design (the 112) by Tim Schroeder. You can ask him about it. I’m not a technical guy at all. I can only tell you what my ears tell me. My friends heard all my cabs AB’ed as well and said I should just sell my others, but that’s not happening. They all have their own things going for them. The 412’s still sound more efficient, but the tone itself isn’t as good
There’s much more to the differences though besides simply 112 vs 412. It’s made of pine, tone ring, unique structure, the back panel inside looks different than other cabs, the side panel has foam, a few other things
GJgo
Well-known member
Will do, thanks. I have an '01 and a couple '06 cabs, did a comparo recently. I think the '06 cabs have their own thing going on and are good in a different way, that said the '01 cab is going to be on our next songs.
Back to the phasing issues on dual mics, what's your opinion of the Fredman technique? Personally I don't care for 57s but I've heard a lot of good things about setting this up. I actually 3D printed a couple clips to try it someday.
Celestion told me it's not a refined version, just a different version.
I hear ya!
All my cabs have Redbacks now. Bogner 412 and 212 all Redbacks. I still have one 412, with Redbacks/V30s and a 212 with Redback/CL80 for variety.
I used to love my Dual Rec into V30/K100, as it was very throaty, but I'm not doing the Dual Rec mush these days.