Buying and Selling- when do you think money should transfer

[SpiderWars]

Reverb didn't originally do it that way, it was like ebay.

Buying from Walmart online is not the same as buying from Joe Schmoe's Garage. We need to stop making these invalid comparisons. The buyer is buying from a complete unknown...not a huge corporation.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Reverb didn't originally do it that way, it was like ebay.

Buying from Walmart online is not the same as buying from Joe Schmoe's Garage. We need to stop making these invalid comparisons. The buyer is buying from a complete unknown...not a huge corporation.

Then don't buy online. Simple. Too many people who don't have a pot to p!ss in... or one to throw it out of out there. If you can't afford to take on the risk with buying online... don't do it. Too many ways, even with waiting until you get the magic tracking number to get ripped off if you want to go down that road.

If you are selling something online, that you absolutely can not afford to walk away from with a 100% loss... only sell locally face to face. And I'm sure there are ways to be robbed or ripped off there too. Same for the broke @$$ buyers out there, that just borrowed the money from their pregnant girlfriend who is out of work on disability, to buy gear.

Again... if you can't afford to play... don't play. Same people buying $2-$3K guitars or amps on credit. If you can pay cash for a $2-$3K guitar/amp upfront... you have zero business buying that kind of gear in the first place. We are talking about buying and selling guitars/amps/pedals... not closing escrow on a home. If you can't afford to walk away and take the hit, don't play.

The way business has been done online from the beginning (with few exceptions) is pay the seller, the seller ships once funds are received. The whole other legal side is that if some website, entity, person, et al is holding funds as escrow, so to speak, they are acting as a guarantor of such deals and open themself up to various liabilities, warrantees, implied or otherwise associated with the transaction as well.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

But it can work that way. Let me try to detail this way:
1- buyer sees the listing and buys a piece of gear (on a gear marketplace, not a store)
2- buyer pays (buyer can NOT cancel one payment is made unless he contacts seller and both agree)
3- money goes to Stripe. The money is held by Stripe
4- seller gets notice of the sale
5- seller ships gear and gets a tracking number
6- seller updates marketplace (and buyer gets notice) with tracking number
7- Stripe releases payment to seller

As a side note, I’m developing this, so that is why I’m asking for help in how we would like to see it work. I’m not advocating for any certain way.

Fraudulent seller ships buyer a box of rocks, around the same size, and weight as guitar/amp/pedal in question... what exactly did the above listed method do to protect against that scenario?

If you wish to act as a guarantor or arbitrator of such online gear deals... you're going to need a sizable piggy bank to back you up. And build such risk (read as operational capital) in to the cost of the operating the business.

 

[RedB4Black]

Guitar Guru Network has no problem providing incorrect tracking numbers to get $ out of reverb.

I can create tracking numbers all day. It’s stupid to think just because you have a tracking number the item has actually shipped.

I’m not shipping until my funds have been released.... transfer to my account is in process (not necessarily in my account).

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Guitar Guru Network has no problem providing incorrect tracking numbers to get $ out of reverb.

I can create tracking numbers all day. It’s stupid to think just because you have a tracking number the item has actually shipped.

I’m not shipping until my funds have been released.... transfer to my account is in process (not necessarily in my account).

Ghetto No Gear Network... rotflmao.

He sure has lots of nice fake/stock pictures of gear he doesn't have in-stock. Even though he will lie to your face and say he has it sitting his "warehouse"... read as grandmother's basement.


Takes your money, gives you some sob story about how the guitar/amp was dropped/run over by a firetruck/pissed on by his blind dog etc, and says if you can wait 3-6 months, while he keeps your money, he'll gladly order you a new one. Sound about right?

 

[SpiderWars]

Buyers can get refunds easy. Not an issue for buyers. It's sellers I would be concerned about. Fwiw, I approached the original quetion as if I was 50% buyer and 50% seller since that is in the spirit of stratjacket's question. He has to consider both sides.

This is different than deals on RT or TGP (no middleman there) so that's another comparison we need to stop.

 

[stratjacket]

But it can work that way. Let me try to detail this way:
1- buyer sees the listing and buys a piece of gear (on a gear marketplace, not a store)
2- buyer pays (buyer can NOT cancel one payment is made unless he contacts seller and both agree)
3- money goes to Stripe. The money is held by Stripe
4- seller gets notice of the sale
5- seller ships gear and gets a tracking number
6- seller updates marketplace (and buyer gets notice) with tracking number
7- Stripe releases payment to seller

As a side note, I’m developing this, so that is why I’m asking for help in how we would like to see it work. I’m not advocating for any certain way.

Fraudulent seller ships buyer a box of rocks, around the same size, and weight as guitar/amp/pedal in question... what exactly did the above listed method do to protect against that scenario?

If you wish to act as a guarantor or arbitrator of such online gear deals... you're going to need a sizable piggy bank to back you up. And build such risk (read as operational capital) in to the cost of the operating the business.

Yeah, that's true. It still comes down to individuals dealing with one another. The marketplace is just a platform to buy/sell/trade. Other than NOT buying, selling and trading in an online marketplace, can you think of a better way to shepherd the deal through?
I guess if a seller mails a box of rocks, the buyer can reverse charges on the credit card?

The marketplace is not acting as a guarantor of deals, it offers a trackable process and can guarantee the services it provides. But no marketplace can guarantee the item is as-described, shipped on time, arrives safely, meets buyers needs, etc...

 

[Scumback Speakers]

Going by the ebay model... which is pretty much the "standard" in these areas... I am not shipping nothing until money is in my account.



If I had a nickel for every flake, tire kicker, or time waster... I'd have bought my private island by now. Just went thru this recently with a bunch of "I'll take it" bums then nothing. Actual currently active lowlife members on this very forum, with stuff for sale in the Classifieds right now. Yeah... I'll take it, when can you ship... then nothing. Until cash has crossed my hands/account, I'm not even packing like Jim mentions above. No dice.

Well, like that Mesa head deal I handled for you out here. You send me the cash, buyer brings me the head. I play it and pass on the demo results. Then I pack it, you pay me (what $100 right?) plus the shipping/paypal fees...and you're set. No middle man handing the money without knowing what they're getting or testing.

But that's obviously not the norm, I've done that 4-5 times in the last 20 years. The whole "unknown factor" with someone who's a broker, middleman, escrow service...whatever...is only as good as their actual experience, tonal abilities and knowledge.

Otherwise it's a total crapshoot.

But that Mesa ruled through a 4x12 with M75 65w!

 

[Scumback Speakers]

Yeah I could definitely see that in a deal on here or something like that. But what if it’s a marketplace where the buyer has paid and cannot cancel, the money is just held by a 3rd party until something triggers (Tracking # or something else?) the release of funds to the seller?
Or I guess the trigger could be the buyer paid...

Still the same pitfalls of "what's in the box?" whether it's a broker or whatever. The last few things I've sold have all been pretty much on forums, from a 69 Super Bass (Steve King RIP) to a 71 Super Lead to random speakers.

The difference is that if I screw up, I have something to lose, whereas someone who's not in the MI business can bail, take your money and leave you hanging. I don't have that option, and I have a little higher set of ethics than most for gear sales.

The problem is that there's always a way to scam someone when there's a 3rd party involved.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Going by the ebay model... which is pretty much the "standard" in these areas... I am not shipping nothing until money is in my account.



If I had a nickel for every flake, tire kicker, or time waster... I'd have bought my private island by now. Just went thru this recently with a bunch of "I'll take it" bums then nothing. Actual currently active lowlife members on this very forum, with stuff for sale in the Classifieds right now. Yeah... I'll take it, when can you ship... then nothing. Until cash has crossed my hands/account, I'm not even packing like Jim mentions above. No dice.

Well, like that Mesa head deal I handled for you out here. You send me the cash, buyer brings me the head. I play it and pass on the demo results. Then I pack it, you pay me (what $100 right?) plus the shipping/paypal fees...and you're set. No middle man handing the money without knowing what they're getting or testing.

But that's obviously not the norm, I've done that 4-5 times in the last 20 years. The whole "unknown factor" with someone who's a broker, middleman, escrow service...whatever...is only as good as their actual experience, tonal abilities and knowledge.

Otherwise it's a total crapshoot.

But that Mesa ruled through a 4x12 with M75 65w!

Indeed.

Thanks again for doing that. Always appreciated.

 

[Scumback Speakers]

Indeed.

Thanks again for doing that. Always appreciated.

You're quite welcome.

 

[JackTripper]

But it can work that way. Let me try to detail this way:
1- buyer sees the listing and buys a piece of gear (on a gear marketplace, not a store)
2- buyer pays (buyer can NOT cancel one payment is made unless he contacts seller and both agree)
3- money goes to Stripe. The money is held by Stripe
4- seller gets notice of the sale
5- seller ships gear and gets a tracking number
6- seller updates marketplace (and buyer gets notice) with tracking number
7- Stripe releases payment to seller

As a side note, I’m developing this, so that is why I’m asking for help in how we would like to see it work. I’m not advocating for any certain way.

Fraudulent seller ships buyer a box of rocks, around the same size, and weight as guitar/amp/pedal in question... what exactly did the above listed method do to protect against that scenario?

If you wish to act as a guarantor or arbitrator of such online gear deals... you're going to need a sizable piggy bank to back you up. And build such risk (read as operational capital) in to the cost of the operating the business.

Yeah, that's true. It still comes down to individuals dealing with one another. The marketplace is just a platform to buy/sell/trade. Other than NOT buying, selling and trading in an online marketplace, can you think of a better way to shepherd the deal through?
I guess if a seller mails a box of rocks, the buyer can reverse charges on the credit card?

The marketplace is not acting as a guarantor of deals, it offers a trackable process and can guarantee the services it provides. But no marketplace can guarantee the item is as-described, shipped on time, arrives safely, meets buyers needs, etc...

Maybe it's all the payment options you have in your poll, contingent on the buyer/seller feedback score. For instance, new sellers (or less trustworthy) start at the bottom payment option "When buyer completes review." For more established sellers it's " as soon as buyers pay." Moving up the payment ladder could be based on number of transactions or dollar sales volume or feedback score or a matrix that factors them all.

You're not really creating a marketplace like Reverb or Ebay, because if you were you would be responsible for dispute resolution, let alone trigger tax collection obligations from just about every state you sell in. Plus, when people spend money in these marketplaces to buy products, they are subconsciously "buying the marketplace" (meaning reputation, trustworthiness, protection protocols, etc) and not specifically the individual seller. It's a 3 party transaction.

You're trying to replicate that business model in a 2 party transaction. It works for established storefront or online sellers. But for 2 individual people with no history--it's a crapshoot.