Help With Right Hand Technique

[ubermetaldood]

Hello everyone. This is my second post on this forums since I recently joined and I would like some help improving my technique. I apologize for the length of my post because I am battling several issues with my right hand technique.

I've been practicing for about 1 1/2 years now and progress has been slow. Admittedly I did waste a lot of time initially learning how to play and developed bad habits. At first my approach was learn the tab until I could pick it slowly and then try to get up to speed. This way of doing things led to severe deficiencies alternate picking at different speeds. I could either play it very slow or very fast, and when I did play it fast, my playing would be 50/50. Some days I felt like I could play anything and other days I felt like I couldn't play a damned thing!

Another glitch in my technique is how I hold the pick. I get more articulation, speed and ease of crossing strings by kind of loosely pinching the pick with the pads of my index finger and thumb; however at the expense of not always being able to push the pick through the next string. By holding the pick traditionally, between my thumb and the side of my index finger, I'm able to more reliably push through to the next string when crossing strings but it's much slower and harder to keep my pick on top of the strings.

The sound of the pick attack is also important to me because although pinching the pick sounds more articulate it also sounds a little more nasal and treble. I recorded playing up and down the same scale patterns using both techniques and the pinch grip is brighter, thinner, nasaly and more articulate while the thumb grip is quackier, fatter and more dimensional... if any of these descriptions make sense to anyone besides myself.

Either way I try to use wrist motion mostly instead of trying to wiggle my fingers. All the things I read about playing indicate that the wrist motion is most desirable and the finger wiggle motion is a bad habit so I stuck with the wrist motion.

My problem is that when I start getting comfortable with one way of doing it I hit a snag and progress faster with the other way of doing it. I could never find a way to comfortably or efficiently switch between picking styles. Furthermore I have hard enough time to master one picking technique as it is!

This all has led me to revert back to the traditional, more reliable but much slower, pick grip because I concluded that it's better to develop one way of doing it.

Now I am very frustrated with my playing because I can only CLEANLY play a pathetic 4-6 notes per beat at 120 bpm. Blues and rock isn't too much of a challenge especially if I can use more legato technique, but this speed limitation keeps me from playing the fast paced metal music that I always wanted to play.

I practice rigorously and consistently every day but my progress stagnates. I'm stuck to playing everything 1/2 speed and I will never be able to start a metal band at this pace. It sucks because when I want to learn a song I have to be very picky about which songs I can actually play up to speed.

I have been trying to play Cliffs of Dover for 2 years and still have to play it at 1/2 speed. I have much less trouble with Satriani style music or blues because the mixed legato and bending alleviates me from the alternate picking.

Furthermore, some things I can pick quite fast and clean like on the B & E strings:

----------12-14-15-14-12---------
-12-14-15----------------15-14-12

or Paul Gilbert kind of thing

----------12-14-15-14-15-14-12----------
-12-14-15----------------------15-14-12-

Then I run into the problem like this Eric Johnson lick in which no amount of practice allows me to overcome stumble I make on the 8th fret B string when coming back down

-------5-7-6-5-------------------------
---5-8---------8-5--5-8---------------
-7-----------------7-------------------

I know this is a lot to read but I desperately need help improving my picking so I can start playing songs I really want to play instead of the damn blues. I can tell many of you are real pros because I listened to your playing so your advice will be appreciated.

 

[glpg80]

i used both picking techniques for the longest time - mainly the side finger part for years. but this is improper to me, i forced myself to hold it with the tip of my finger and thumb and use strictly wrist motion and im able to get much better control.

trick i always favored was repetative practice of modes going vertically on the fretboard. make sure your palm is resting on the strings flat and not at an angle when using your wrist - it makes string muting and control alot more effortless and it will flow - you will know what i mean when you do it combined with the finger-thumb - its complete and total control. the way you practice with that technique is a logrithmic approach - like 1, 12 21, 123 321, 1234 4321, etc which helps you both in strength, dexterity, and getting a feel for the shapes of modes and what they sound like.

if you can find it, look up an old racer x bruce bouilette training video. he gives an excellent crash course introduction into modes.

theres a video made by george lynch in the dokken days - find that video and you can learn alot from "shapes" which is a really badass 80's approach to looking at the fretboard.

theres 1 program that costs a 1 time fee of $30 that is worth buying to help you visualize the fretboard and make up your own practicing routines.

once you get your dexterity up, you will find yourself not needing to pinch the pick between the side of your finger and thumb as much because you can sound just as heavy with the wrist/finger/thumb technique and simply the amount of pick you let hang off the tip of your finger and also the angle at which you hold it.

it took me literally years to fix my old habits - i can easily say it took me 3 years to get this right and correct. im just now seeing the speed and control and flow part of it - but its been well worth it. i now teach lessons to my students to hold the pick with the finger (if they can... not everyone is the same)

i never learned stuff from tabs - maybe once or twice if i couldnt figure out a cover riff by ear but that was as far as i ever took it. i just picked up CD's from van halen, dokken, crue, etc and jammed along. best thing to do for technique is look at guys like gilbert & old dimebag videos i think. at least thats what i did.

 

[ubermetaldood]

Thank you. I will look for those videos on youtube. I'm not sure I follow about the positioning of the palm though. I always read that you should only use the edge of your palm against the bridge and not the palm itself. Another question I have is that I seem to need to kind of anchor my ring finger, pinky or both when picking in order to keep on top of the strings. Otherwise my hand may tend to dig in too much here and there and disrupt the flow of my picking.

One more question I have now is also how do I know when I'm starting to get proficient. 4-6 notes at 120 BPM is pathetic but I don't know what other relatively good players can do cleanly. Not that it's a competition or anything but just to know where I stand for all my effort.

 

[5150GSX]

I know what you mean . . . I've been playing the last 15 years with my pick between my thumb and the side of my pointer finger and while I could play clean sextuplets on the higher 3 strings my articulation suffered on the lower strings as well did a lot of my rhythm playing. I've spent the last few months switching from that way to using my thumb and end of my pointer finger and now my playing is much more focused on the lower 3 strings but it's suffering on the higher strings. I know I just need to devote the time and practice and it's working, but it seems like my speed and articulation right now has taken a giant step backwards. Just gotta practice practice practice . . . . everybody starts fresh somewhere dude.

 

[glpg80]

drop the metronome on the logrithmic stuff.

you are not working to play music with that practice so timing doesnt matter until much later - you need to learn the notes and concentrate on what they sound like.

once you get that down - then bring out the metronome and worry about accuracy, speed, clean-ness with muting on both hands, along with flavoring the notes.

you have to know the notes, what they sound like, and what they feel like, before you can worry about speed. we are talking years here - nothing that can be done in a few weeks or maybe months.

if you use a metronome from the start you limit yourself to not listening to what you are playing and also concentrating on the timing too much - when the whole point of the lick is not the timing, but the reason you are playing it to learn its sound and the feel of it (in both left and right hands) in the first place.

as far as the palm goes - what i said is what i do. it works for arpeggio's, modes, rhythm, and im never breaking a sweat doing any of it. not saying its easier at first and it may feel wierd but its what i do.

 

[MississippiMetal]

I'd also like to add that it sounds like you may be practicing too hard and burning yourself out mentally. Try practicing in smaller sessions, and in between, do something completely not related to the guitar.

 

[chunktone]

drop the metronome on the logrithmic stuff.

you are not working to play music with that practice so timing doesnt matter until much later - you need to learn the notes and concentrate on what they sound like.

once you get that down - then bring out the metronome and worry about accuracy, speed, clean-ness with muting on both hands, along with flavoring the notes.

you have to know the notes, what they sound like, and what they feel like, before you can worry about speed. we are talking years here - nothing that can be done in a few weeks or maybe months.

if you use a metronome from the start you limit yourself to not listening to what you are playing and also concentrating on the timing too much - when the whole point of the lick is not the timing, but the reason you are playing it to learn its sound and the feel of it (in both left and right hands) in the first place.

as far as the palm goes - what i said is what i do. it works for arpeggio's, modes, rhythm, and im never breaking a sweat doing any of it. not saying its easier at first and it may feel wierd but its what i do.

This is good advise. what you are referring to as "logarithmic" I have more commonly heard called digital progressions. these are very useful to practise, and can be heard all over many types of music. I would learn the Major scale and all it's relative modes in all keys, in all positions. Take one patern and number the notes from low to high, then practice: 123,234,345,456 etc. 1234,2345,3456,4567, etc. 13,24,35,46,57 etc. 212,323,434,545 etc. 321,432,543,654,765 etc. 4321,5432,6543,7654 etc. 1231,2342,3453,4564,5675 etc. practice these all the way accross the scale pattern, and then reverse them and do them decending. You may also want to apply intervalic exersizes such as: 3rds=13,24,35,46 etc. 4ths 14,25,36,47 etc. 5ths 15,26,37,48 etc. 6ths 16,27,38,49 etc. 7ths 17,28,39,4 10, etc.

Another excersize that focuses on the right hand is just to set your metronome then play whole notes, then half notes, then quarter notes, quarter note triplets, 16th notes, 16th note triplets, 32nd notes, 32nd note triplets etc. Then gradually increase the speed of the metronome and repeat.

Also, keep in mind that virtually every guitarist you may look up to, EVH, Lynch, Dimebag Darryl or whoever spent many hours a day for YEARS playing. You get out of it what you put into it. I hope this helps. Oh, and above all HAVE FUN!

 

[glpg80]

yeah i started out with aeolean(sp?) mode which is natural minor related in the key of A, and just shifted it to ABC# DEFG for years. once i got that down pat - i moved to Dorian (starts with a D) which is simillar to the Phrygian (starts with an E) and lowered the correct notes to their corresponding semitones.

as you can tell - my playing has a minor key influence now - which was the aim. i like the sad shit ala early marty friedman

i need to go back and cover my tracks when i did locrian (B) and the key of C and F. i always shift modes during playing now to go major or minor - but in solo's and arpeggio's im always in a minor key.

i have a recent video i can post of my playing but it is riddled with mistakes, and is very dark. wouldnt do much good as a learning perspective because you cant see anything.

but yes - learn "do re mi fa sol la ti do" and learn how it correlates to proper key notes in modes. if you want to progress and know where to go on the fretboard - then break out the theory. i buckled down for years and did this and i dont regret it one bit. to be able to recall and know the modes like the back of my hand made arpeggios come natural after 3 years of effort

 

[stephen sawall]

A lot of people can not play very fast .... it really is not very impressive to most people. I can play stupid fast if I want. But it is pretty much useless. Most people want to hear emotion when you play out. This does not happen much with speed playing.

I have spent more time learning how to not play fast then playing fast at this point.

I would guess a lot of people have realized that you right hand is the hard one to learn with a fretted instrument.

What gauge strings, action and most of all what kind of pick you use well really change your ability to play fast.

What kind of picks do you use ?

 

[glpg80]

+1 to what steve said - it all depends on the style you are after. its hard not to go fast all the time when that is all you practice - but you need to keep your chops up so that you can recall it without effort when you want or need.

arpeggio's dont fit anywhere in solo's - i cant see anywhere most of them fit - they are usually for flash or classical pieces imho.

i started out with blues licks a LONG time ago - and i still use blues jams as a learning tool for my students - even the younger ones. diversity is more important than speed. speed will come with time, practicing slowly, accurately, and doing it all with technique

the first video that shocked me the most was zakk wylde with zyris. anyone remember that youtube video?

i knew right then that i wanted to be able to do that. when i held the pick with the side of my thumb i was using a 2.0mm dunlop, and had the same problem as the OP. since the change-over to the finger holding style - i use .88 nylons for their lightness and durability. they dont shred to pieces like fender picks do and its much much more controlled. im still working on timing, muting skills, and getting used to the heavier guage strings. it never ends. but every little thing matters down to the picks.

 

[Motorpud]

The advice I'd give that helped me a lot was just when you're warming up use the metronome on like 60-70 bpm and go from 1 note per beat all the way up to 8 using an open string. 5 and 7 will probably be extremely hard at first but it teaches you to focus more on timing than just playing as fast as you can. Then after the warm ups, turn the metronome off and go look up some videos on alternate picking NOT alternative picking. That last run that you said you had trouble with would almost definitely be alternately picked. The masters (IMO) of alternate picking are Paul Gilbert and Michael Angelo Batio and I know they both have instructional vids specifically on alternate picking exercises. And also remember that proper technique will usually result in better playing than just balls out speed. Just my 2 cents

 

[stephen sawall]

Get yourself some of these .... it well make a huge difference if you learn how to use them.... Dunlop Jazz III

http://www.salaomozart.com/store/images ... kBlack.jpg

 

[Motorpud]

Get yourself some of these .... it well make a huge difference if you learn how to use them.... Dunlop Jazz III

http://www.salaomozart.com/store/images ... kBlack.jpg

I use the same picks

 

[ubermetaldood]

A lot of people can not play very fast .... it really is not very impressive to most people. I can play stupid fast if I want. But it is pretty much useless. Most people want to hear emotion when you play out. This does not happen much with speed playing.

I have spent more time learning how to not play fast then playing fast at this point.

I would guess a lot of people have realized that you right hand is the hard one to learn with a fretted instrument.

What gauge strings, action and most of all what kind of pick you use well really change your ability to play fast.

What kind of picks do you use ?

Let me emphasize that I agree totally with the idea that it's all about the music, melody, etc... However, I must be able to play faster in order to express my musical ideas as they come to me. I've gotten pretty proficient with the melodic stuff but nailing the solos is an immense challenge. By the time I master the riffs I've forgotten where I was going with it.

I use the purple tortex 1.14mm picks but recently switched to Tortex 1.14 wedge. It's basically the same pick except the edge is not as round. I find that it forces me to pick more accurately.

I'll probably never play a lot of fast soloing in the music I make, but the musical ideas in my head require some fast runs. Furthermore I want to be able to play all the metal and rock songs of my guitar heroes. I've heard players fill in fast runs with slop and I hate that more than anything. I simply avoid playing stuff because I can't play it the way it should be played.

The only things I can really nail at this point in my playing is Satriani, Maiden, Slash, etc. My real desire is to be able to jam to stuff like Van Halen, Dream Theater, Marty Friedman era Megadeth, George Lynch, Eric Johnson, you know stuff like that. Those players are crazy fast. The only way I could probably pull that off is cheating with legato and economy picking but that would be limiting me in the long run.

When I think of emotionality in playing naturally David Gilmour and Jeff Healey come to mind, however when I listen to the Desert Rose solos on Ah Via Musicom, I can't think of more compelling musical expression. As cheesy as his singing is in that song, that's got to be the best solo ever. SRV is also hard to crack. Boy was he lightning fast. Riviera Paradise mesmerizes me and he plays pretty fast on that.

 

[stephen sawall]

Well you are talking about some pretty fast players .... of course people like John Mc Laughlin just blow them away.

Bottom line is you can only run so fast, jump so high and pick so fast. Most people well never get to that point. ..... and the bottom line is if you took any of these players and asked them to play some of the other players riffs a tempo ..... most would not be able to do it. Just like no matter how long you try .... you well never teach a dog to talk.

We all .... including all the people you mentioned have days when the guitar is under full control and others where you feel like the guitar is just fighting you.

You can take two paths .... give up and just live with your limitations or just prove me wrong. Hope you reach your goals.

Check out this crazy stuff ...... not many can do this ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89p8ya3ZdnQ

 

[Motorpud]

The stuff you're talking about to me sounds like technique issues. If you think that your right hand is your weakest link then find out what you need improvement on the most and do specific exercises to improve. All of the guys you mentioned have probably played multiple hours a day for decades, actually I know this isn't news for anyone but I've read that Satriani has or has had in the past 12 hour practices, and Slash used to practice around 8 hours per day. I remember reading a magazine article my dad showed me (he's a Stevie Ray nut) that said Stevie Ray Vaughan used to practice so much that his fingers would bleed and he would put superglue on his fingertips and start playing again. That's the kind of dedication those guys put in to play like that, kind of goes back to what glpg80 (matt) was saying about taking 3 years to master arpeggios, there's no instant gratification in learning the guitar.

 

[Ethn Hayabusa]

For the Eric Johnson style licks you should know that he doesn't always alternate pick. He frequently uses rest strokes or combines that with slurs.

Just keep practicing slower than your ceiling tempo. Speed is the byproduct of quality practice. Don't force it too much.

 

[gbsmusic]

The stuff you're talking about to me sounds like technique issues. If you think that your right hand is your weakest link then find out what you need improvement on the most and do specific exercises to improve. All of the guys you mentioned have probably played multiple hours a day for decades, actually I know this isn't news for anyone but I've read that Satriani has or has had in the past 12 hour practices, and Slash used to practice around 8 hours per day. I remember reading a magazine article my dad showed me (he's a Stevie Ray nut) that said Stevie Ray Vaughan used to practice so much that his fingers would bleed and he would put superglue on his fingertips and start playing again. That's the kind of dedication those guys put in to play like that, kind of goes back to what glpg80 (matt) was saying about taking 3 years to master arpeggios, there's no instant gratification in learning the guitar.

Great stuff!

 

[Hardwired]

I can honestly help out here. I started off doing everything WRONG. I wanted to play like Lynch and DeMartini overnight.
I cheated my way through speed and picking, riffing, and buried my mistakes and volume, gain, ovrdrives, and EQ's. So obviously I was caught for the hack that I was by pros. So, I started over, from scratch, with a PROPER teacher. Not just a bunch of YouTube videos.
In the end, it was hard, but the end result was oh so worth it. Start slow, pick correctly no matter how freakin' hard and awkward it will feel at first. Finger chords properly, don't cheat. Take your time. Rome wasn't built in a day and niether are good guitar playing techs. Good luck man. Find a good teacher. Best suggestion I can make.