Herbert and Impulse Responses sounds thin and grainy!?

[MrFlexx]

I've just got myself a Herbert and with the Diezel cab it sounds awesome if it's a bit louder than "allowed" in an apartment. If I play at bedroom level it all sounds thin and fizzy without any bottom and I know it’s because the Herbert need a bit of a volume before it starts to sound as it supposed to. Therefore I'm using a Suhr Reactive with Ownhammer IR's for recording and noodling around. The problem is that it sounds all thin and grainy…just like the Herbert sounds playing with a real cab at whispering low volume. Any of you guys been trying to record a Herbert using IR's? The reason I'm asking is because my Friedman Smallbox, ENGL Retro Tube 100 and ENGL Powerball II sounds as the real deal using this setup. But no matter how I try using EQ's and various Impulse Responses, it still sounds thin, grainy with no punch or tightness.

Maybe the Herbert doesn't record well using IR's, or? I’d like to record it using my real cab and mics...but it's too loud for my whining neighbors...and for my daughter when it's her bedtime.
Any ideas or suggestions? Will an attenuator do the trick for recording at whispering volumes while retaining the full body tone? I know it won’t move some air, but I just want the tone to be as good as it can be at low volumes as with my other amps.

 

[slyym]

Give us an example. Post up a clip.

 

[stratjacket]

What ids your full route?
Guitar->Herbert->Suhr RL-> ??

 

[MrFlexx]

What ids your full route?
Guitar->Herbert->Suhr RL-> ??

Herbert 8 Ohm -> Suhr Reactive Load -> RME UCX -> Cubase Pro 9.5 using Wall of Sound and tried out Ownhammer IR's as well as Two-Notes own IR's.

 

[MrFlexx]

Give us an example. Post up a clip.

Please don't mind my sloppy playing as it's played in frustration

Here's a clip using the Karozen with a SM57 and a R121: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1A0Pbj ... y-JJLnyXbX

Here's a clip using a real Diezel FL 4x12 with V30's using a SM57: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tAmUp ... 2_nEoTgdZU

Here's a clip playing solo guitar with the same mics and the Karozen as before: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oxFdD ... bbcg4GZwJb

Here's an old clip using the real mic and cab. This clip has some reverb and delay...but no EQ post processing: https://drive.google.com/open?id=18np_Q ... 8ecfr98cQd

As you can hear the new clips using WoS sounds really thin even though I use the famous and tried combination of a R121 and SM57. Any ideas?

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

It’s not so much thin sounding... as really nasal and mid-honky. Too mid boosted imho.

Have you tried different mics and different mic positions in WoS? I’m not a fan of the R121 (the sim nor the real mic).

I’ve got a Herbert and a TN Studio and Reload... and my Herbert sounds and records great thru both. Using the stock TN IRs. Something is off in the recording chain or method. It’s not the amp.

 

[EvilBatman]

Try the "Bass20" (EV RE20 mic) mic on the Kerozen cab off center by 10-15 percent. Also, load two Kerozen cabs, both panned in the center and the same volume. Put the Bass20 mic on one 0-15 off center, and the R121 on the other at 35-50 percent off center. Keep both at the same distance from the cab and then play with the levels to get a tone you may like. You might also want to try shaving some highs off with the EQ in WoS and or using one cab for lows with the highs and mids cut way back, and one cab for mids and highs with the low end cut.

I can't find the literature, but OwnHammer did recommend a broad, subtle -3db midscoop on their IRs for simulating a closer reaction to an authentic cab/head interplay.

And truthfully, I've found nearly all of the IRs/speakers sims I've tried to be mid heavy. It's turned me off of them quite honestly.

 

[K-Roll]

Give us an example. Post up a clip.

Please don't mind my sloppy playing as it's played in frustration

Here's a clip using the Karozen with a SM57 and a R121: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1A0Pbj ... y-JJLnyXbX

Here's a clip using a real Diezel FL 4x12 with V30's using a SM57: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tAmUp ... 2_nEoTgdZU

Here's a clip playing solo guitar with the same mics and the Karozen as before: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oxFdD ... bbcg4GZwJb

Here's an old clip using the real mic and cab. This clip has some reverb and delay...but no EQ post processing: https://drive.google.com/open?id=18np_Q ... 8ecfr98cQd

As you can hear the new clips using WoS sounds really thin even though I use the famous and tried combination of a R121 and SM57. Any ideas?

hmm could it be that the UCX does not get the proper amount of signal from the Suhr reactive out?

You say you are using a Suhr reactive load and in your sound samples it sounds as if the native IR that comes with the Suhr is engaged.
It sounds exactly the same as when we tried it in one of our rehearsals to feed our in ear monitor path. It was exactly this weird middy sound that we got to our monitors.

And I hope you also have the right Suhr reactive load box for that 8ohm out.

Are you getting the right signal type for what you are trying to achieve?

 

[MrFlexx]

It’s not so much thin sounding... as really nasal and mid-honky. Too mid boosted imho.

Have you tried different mics and different mic positions in WoS? I’m not a fan of the R121 (the sim nor the real mic).

I’ve got a Herbert and a TN Studio and Reload... and my Herbert sounds and records great thru both. Using the stock TN IRs. Something is off in the recording chain or method. It’s not the amp.

Ok! May be some bad explanation from my side...but nasal and honky sounds about it. I've tried tons of different cabs and mics and adding and removing bass, mids, treble, pres...without it sounding less honky and nasal. The strange thing is that I sold my Friedman Smallbox when I got the Herbert and just unplugged the speaker Cables from the Smallbox and connected them to my Herbert. Nothing else changed...except for the tone getting all screwed up.

I'm getting to loan a Torpedo Live today from a local store and will try getting a better sound using that instead to see if it'll work. I really hope it will...will try changing all the cables too.

 

[MrFlexx]

Give us an example. Post up a clip.

Please don't mind my sloppy playing as it's played in frustration

Here's a clip using the Karozen with a SM57 and a R121: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1A0Pbj ... y-JJLnyXbX

Here's a clip using a real Diezel FL 4x12 with V30's using a SM57: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tAmUp ... 2_nEoTgdZU

Here's a clip playing solo guitar with the same mics and the Karozen as before: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oxFdD ... bbcg4GZwJb

Here's an old clip using the real mic and cab. This clip has some reverb and delay...but no EQ post processing: https://drive.google.com/open?id=18np_Q ... 8ecfr98cQd

As you can hear the new clips using WoS sounds really thin even though I use the famous and tried combination of a R121 and SM57. Any ideas?

hmm could it be that the UCX does not get the proper amount of signal from the Suhr reactive out?

You say you are using a Suhr reactive load and in your sound samples it sounds as if the native IR that comes with the Suhr is engaged.
It sounds exactly the same as when we tried it in one of our rehearsals to feed our in ear monitor path. It was exactly this weird middy sound that we got to our monitors.

And I hope you also have the right Suhr reactive load box for that 8ohm out.

Are you getting the right signal type for what you are trying to achieve?

I'm using a 8 Ohm Suhr Reactive Load.
What you mean by getting the right signal type?
I will try giving the UCX more signal from the Suhr to see if that helps
When deactivating the monitoring in Cubase I don't hear any signal...so shouldn't it mean that the direct signal is killed/not engaged? That was the first thing I tried out, but maybe there's something I'm missing?

 

[MrFlexx]

Try the "Bass20" (EV RE20 mic) mic on the Kerozen cab off center by 10-15 percent. Also, load two Kerozen cabs, both panned in the center and the same volume. Put the Bass20 mic on one 0-15 off center, and the R121 on the other at 35-50 percent off center. Keep both at the same distance from the cab and then play with the levels to get a tone you may like. You might also want to try shaving some highs off with the EQ in WoS and or using one cab for lows with the highs and mids cut way back, and one cab for mids and highs with the low end cut.

I can't find the literature, but OwnHammer did recommend a broad, subtle -3db midscoop on their IRs for simulating a closer reaction to an authentic cab/head interplay.

And truthfully, I've found nearly all of the IRs/speakers sims I've tried to be mid heavy. It's turned me off of them quite honestly.

I will try using what you're suggesting. When I come to Think about it, the Ownhammer recommendation is in the manual when buying IR's from them. Will read and try it out.

 

[Omega1397]

As per my post in the Diezel forum, i've had a similar issue with a passive volume attenuator on my Herbert as well. It works perfectly with my VH4, but with my Herbert it sucks the tone out and makes it fizzy, while the entire bottom end is gone.

 

[MrFlexx]

As per my post in the Diezel forum, i've had a similar issue with a passive volume attenuator on my Herbert as well. It works perfectly with my VH4, but with my Herbert it sucks the tone out and makes it fizzy, while the entire bottom end is gone.

So I should get a Torpedo Reload then? Or do you have any other you can recommend?

 

[Omega1397]

As per my post in the Diezel forum, i've had a similar issue with a passive volume attenuator on my Herbert as well. It works perfectly with my VH4, but with my Herbert it sucks the tone out and makes it fizzy, while the entire bottom end is gone.

So I should get a Torpedo Reload then? Or do you have any other you can recommend?

I have no clue to be honest. I'm talking in regards to an EWS subtle volume attenuator. However, there is a member here named Wizard of Ozz who has a reload with his Herbert, and he says it works great.

 

[MrFlexx]

Just tried it out with a Torpedo Live with and without WoS...what a difference.. it sounds great. I had a Torpedo Live and a Torpedo Reload when playing Mesa Mark V, Marshall and Friedman Smallbox and the Suhr Reactive Load was that good making me sell the Torpedo’s. It’s really a surprise that the Herbert sounds like crap with the Suhr but awesome with Live. I’m loaning a Reload tomorrow too. I will sell my Suhr and get one of the Torpedo’s again.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Just tried it out with a Torpedo Live with and without WoS...what a difference.. it sounds great. I had a Torpedo Live and a Torpedo Reload when playing Mesa Mark V, Marshall and Friedman Smallbox and the Suhr Reactive Load was that good making me sell the Torpedo’s. It’s really a surprise that the Herbert sounds like crap with the Suhr but awesome with Live. I’m loaning a Reload tomorrow too. I will sell my Suhr and get one of the Torpedo’s again.

Bingo. Problem solved.

I know the Suhr has a built-in cab sim based on a 4X12 with Celestion M25W Greenbacks... so that might have been the issue. But Diezel amps sound and work great with any of the TN units. Really simple & effective combo for home recording. Doesn't get much better than this.

 

[dfrattaroli]

The Suhr Reactive Load does not have a built in IR. Maybe you're thinking of the Suhr ACE.

 

[Badronald]

The Suhr Reactive Load does not have a built in IR. Maybe you're thinking of the Suhr ACE.

Correct.

Sometimes it’s difficult to read threads with the misinformation. It’s like watching people talk about guns on the mainstream news outlets.

 

[Kordoba]

The Suhr Reactive Load does not have a built in IR. Maybe you're thinking of the Suhr ACE.

Correct. The suhr has a frequency curve based on a greenback but not an actual IR.