I seriously can't use Sovtek 12AX7A's

[guitarslinger]

They really do sound bad.

I CAN'T DEAL WITH THEM!!

I HAVE A CASE OF THE MONDAYS.

I MUST USE OTHER TUBES.

WHAT'S MORE IMORTANT, RELIABILITY OR TONE?!?!?!?!

 

[eternal_idol]

go for both...

i've disliked wa's and wb's in MANY amps... i can only think that i liked them in an old rivera bonehead..

WCs are nice, same vein as tung sol.

i'm waiting for some mullard reissuse right now.

12ax7EHs seam to be the go too tube in these parts... that or JJs

Ugh... right now i'm mixing tung sol's and rft nos's

it works for now.

Brae

 

[myles]

The WA is the lowest gain 12AX7 type produced today. That is one reason some folks like them in complex amps ... they cut down noise as they have low gain.

They are also cheap and sturdy which is why many amp makers of low or moderate priced amps like them.

 

[jasonP]

The WA is the lowest gain 12AX7 type produced today. That is one reason some folks like them in complex amps ... they cut down noise as they have low gain.

They are also cheap and sturdy which is why many amp makers of low or moderate priced amps like them.

So does low gain mean "bad" tone?

 

[myles]

The WA is the lowest gain 12AX7 type produced today. That is one reason some folks like them in complex amps ... they cut down noise as they have low gain.

They are also cheap and sturdy which is why many amp makers of low or moderate priced amps like them.

So does low gain mean "bad" tone?

NO ... not at all! SRV used to use 5751's in the front end some Fender amps and it was terrific. Some amps benefit really nicely from lower gain in the first gain stage.

In the end the best indicators are your own ears. I have had tubes with bad numbers that sounded spectacular in their respective amps.

 

[mentoneman]

hey myles,

have you ever encountered an egnater tol 100?

i'm starting a new live rig and my initial feeling is that the tubes aren't happening.

ch. 1 clean is a bit on the noisy side...i have a mullard in V1...and the power section feels dull/sterile to me...a quad of groove tubes el-34s are in it now, and i remember when i went from EH EL-34s to groove tubes EL-34 LS i lost a fair bit of touch sensitivity and top end.
i'm feeling that similar muted stiffness from the amp now.

 

[myles]

hey myles,

have you ever encountered an egnater tol 100?

i'm starting a new live rig and my initial feeling is that the tubes aren't happening.

ch. 1 clean is a bit on the noisy side...i have a mullard in V1...and the power section feels dull/sterile to me...a quad of groove tubes el-34s are in it now, and i remember when i went from EH EL-34s to groove tubes EL-34 LS i lost a fair bit of touch sensitivity and top end.
i'm feeling that similar muted stiffness from the amp now.

mentoneman ...

I am familiar with Bruce's amps.

When you say "Mullard" are you talking about the Sovtek made Mullard or the GT Mullard reissue?

On the output tubes, the EH EL34 tubes are the weakest of any current production EL34 and have a short life. The GT E34LS is a very different tube than even the JJ E34L that some folks think are the same tube. The GT has a different plate structure (there are heat sink wings where the two side of the plates come together) and some other differences that are not noticible to the eye. They are a 30 watt tube and all others are 25 watters. The GT has a very different bias than other EL34 tubes, the need an additional -1.5 to -2.0 or so volts of bias to bias properly. They are an agressive EL34 with an edgy tone. A winged C Svetlana for example is smoother and more vintage sounding.

To get back to the point .... the GT tube likes to be biased at about 60% ID. If you know your plate voltage off pin 3 and post it here I will post back a little bias chart for your particular plate voltage for the LS. The GT's can have the issues you spoke about when not biased within a certain window and they are also harder to drive with a phase inverter that has low plate current which is pretty typical these days. If the bias is in the ballpark and the tubes are fresh I'd want to look at the phase inverter and know what it is. The breakdown of the phase inverter has more impact than the output tubes in many settings. Tube makers would rather have you buy another $100+ set of output tubes and then you need to rebias rather than pop in a $15 phase inverter that is plug and play and does not need any form of adjustment.

I did not look at where you are before I started to reply to this post but if you are near me or if I will be anywhere near you (I move around a lot) I would be happy to adjust your bias at no charge, test your phase inverter and ... if I do not like what your phase inverter is doing I will tell you why, show you why, and give you one of mine at no charge. If you know folks that know me you will find out that I do this quite often as it is just a cool thing to do for players on a budget and I tend to generate my income from big touring acts that can afford to pay my normal rate. An hour of having fun with an amp, making a new friend and making things sound better is an hour that is fun to me and the cost of a preamp tube for me is very low in the quantities I have in stock.

I will be out of town starting tomorrow for a few days to a few weeks. I will be in Laughlin Nevada, Lake Havisu Arizona and then Flagstaff Arizona if any of those places are close to you. My schedule is usually on my blog on myspace as a side note.


Hope this was some help ....

Myles

 

[guitarslinger]

Since when did I say I didn't like low gain tubes?

Some of the best tones out of my Egnater SL2 is an RCA NOS 12AU7.

It cuts the gain in half and pleases me tonally.

The WA makes me puke with it's disgusting fizziness, dead mids, and cardboard bass.

 

[Audioholic]

Never liked Sovtecks either man, tried them a few times with stuff they came in, quickly came out

EH tubes seem to be pretty reliable and don't sound as bad to me. I used to hate JJ's, but for some stuff they actually compliment the amp well when overly bright.

 

[guitarslinger]

Never liked Sovtecks either man, tried them a few times with stuff they came in, quickly came out

EH tubes seem to be pretty reliable and don't sound as bad to me. I used to hate JJ's, but for some stuff they actually compliment the amp well when overly bright.

To me, EH's definitely sound similar to WA's, but certainly not as bad.

I really like a mix of JJ ECC83S and any Chinese 12AX7's. They complement each other really well when you put a little time into trying combinations of both. The smooth, clear, focused high gain of the Shuguangs just rocks with the JJ's smoky darkness.

AWESOME.

I have some GE's, Sylvania's, and such out into which I lucked. I have been too afraid to waste them in my gear or just too lazy to derack and open my stuff

 

[merlop]

The 9th generation high grade chinese 12ax7's have a really balanced tone.

 

[guitarslinger]

The 9th generation high grade chinese 12ax7's have a really balanced tone.

Ever try an old late 80's or early 90's Shuguang?

They're even better than the newer 9th gen.

They came stock in many Mesas, VHT's, CAE's, Egnaters, etc, etc, etc. They were the bomb, and they are now classified as highly collectible. DAMMIT!!

I want them all.

 

[midnightlaundry]

These are some of the first tubes I've ever dealt with, since like 93'. I always thought the chinese pres blew them away. The Sovs were always a bit stale.

For the record, chinese tubes are the best all around I think.

 

[mentoneman]

hey myles,

have you ever encountered an egnater tol 100?

i'm starting a new live rig and my initial feeling is that the tubes aren't happening.

ch. 1 clean is a bit on the noisy side...i have a mullard in V1...and the power section feels dull/sterile to me...a quad of groove tubes el-34s are in it now, and i remember when i went from EH EL-34s to groove tubes EL-34 LS i lost a fair bit of touch sensitivity and top end.
i'm feeling that similar muted stiffness from the amp now.

mentoneman ...

I am familiar with Bruce's amps.

When you say "Mullard" are you talking about the Sovtek made Mullard or the GT Mullard reissue?

On the output tubes, the EH EL34 tubes are the weakest of any current production EL34 and have a short life. The GT E34LS is a very different tube than even the JJ E34L that some folks think are the same tube. The GT has a different plate structure (there are heat sink wings where the two side of the plates come together) and some other differences that are not noticible to the eye. They are a 30 watt tube and all others are 25 watters. The GT has a very different bias than other EL34 tubes, the need an additional -1.5 to -2.0 or so volts of bias to bias properly. They are an agressive EL34 with an edgy tone. A winged C Svetlana for example is smoother and more vintage sounding.

To get back to the point .... the GT tube likes to be biased at about 60% ID. If you know your plate voltage off pin 3 and post it here I will post back a little bias chart for your particular plate voltage for the LS. The GT's can have the issues you spoke about when not biased within a certain window and they are also harder to drive with a phase inverter that has low plate current which is pretty typical these days. If the bias is in the ballpark and the tubes are fresh I'd want to look at the phase inverter and know what it is. The breakdown of the phase inverter has more impact than the output tubes in many settings. Tube makers would rather have you buy another $100+ set of output tubes and then you need to rebias rather than pop in a $15 phase inverter that is plug and play and does not need any form of adjustment.

I did not look at where you are before I started to reply to this post but if you are near me or if I will be anywhere near you (I move around a lot) I would be happy to adjust your bias at no charge, test your phase inverter and ... if I do not like what your phase inverter is doing I will tell you why, show you why, and give you one of mine at no charge. If you know folks that know me you will find out that I do this quite often as it is just a cool thing to do for players on a budget and I tend to generate my income from big touring acts that can afford to pay my normal rate. An hour of having fun with an amp, making a new friend and making things sound better is an hour that is fun to me and the cost of a preamp tube for me is very low in the quantities I have in stock.

I will be out of town starting tomorrow for a few days to a few weeks. I will be in Laughlin Nevada, Lake Havisu Arizona and then Flagstaff Arizona if any of those places are close to you. My schedule is usually on my blog on myspace as a side note.


Hope this was some help ....

Myles

hi myles,

i'm talking original brit mullard ecc83---
i've got a brimar ecc83 and also a magnavox 12au7 i can experiment with

i know of your fine reputation and think you are very generous for offering...i'm in so cal between LA and Palm Springs and would be willing to make a trek to get your help

 

[duesentrieb]

12AU7 or ECC82 has off specs for most (not all) guitar amps, Pat. They have 20% of an ECC83 gain and can be used in loops or (certain) PIs though (f.i. VHT 2502).
If you want to clean up your gain try a ECC81/12AT7 (60%) like RFT or (brighter) Telefunken or what Myles suggested - a 5751 (70%).

 

[guitarslinger]

12AU7 or ECC82 has off specs for most (not all) guitar amps, Pat. They have 20% of an ECC83 gain and can be used in loops or (certain) PIs though (f.i. VHT 2502).
If you want to clean up your gain try a ECC81/12AT7 (60%) like RFT or (brighter) Telefunken or what Myles suggested - a 5751 (70%).

Olaf, the only time I had a 12AU7 not work in a normal guitar amp was in the Randall Mr. Scary module. Otherwise, it has dialed the gain way back and sounded REALLY cool in my Egnater stuff.

 

[bill]

The WA is the lowest gain 12AX7 type produced today. That is one reason some folks like them in complex amps ... they cut down noise as they have low gain.

They are also cheap and sturdy which is why many amp makers of low or moderate priced amps like them.

So does low gain mean "bad" tone?

NO ... not at all! SRV used to use 5751's in the front end some Fender amps and it was terrific. Some amps benefit really nicely from lower gain in the first gain stage.

In the end the best indicators are your own ears. I have had tubes with bad numbers that sounded spectacular in their respective amps.

I use those 5751's in my old 59 Guild with great tone sucess. I tried them on a whim after messing around with some NOS 12AU7 tubes in my stash.

 

[mentoneman]

12AU7 or ECC82 has off specs for most (not all) guitar amps, Pat. They have 20% of an ECC83 gain and can be used in loops or (certain) PIs though (f.i. VHT 2502).
If you want to clean up your gain try a ECC81/12AT7 (60%) like RFT or (brighter) Telefunken or what Myles suggested - a 5751 (70%).

thanks olafski---

i'm still way into experiment mode with my rig...i finally got the tol 100 and gforce to switch together via midi, but i'm encountering the same problem i've had with the gforce in the past; it "sounds" better in front of the amp, but if i do it that way i have to stay on the clean channel.

part of me wants to bail the gforce and go line 6 M13 4 cable method,

and another part of me wants an axe-fx lunch box tube combo that weighs 5 pounds, and sounds like landau, ford, sykes, ej, vh, and srv playing through a wall of old celestion 4x12s and jensen 2x12s.

 

[mentoneman]

axe-fx floorboard model into:

http://www.impamp.com/

and a pair of 1x12s.


small and powerful