Just removed the Metro loop from my Wizard M/C...

[lespaul6]

And I'm glad I did... wow, did it make the amp sound shitty. blunted the highs and mids and made the bass sloppy and muddy....it really screwed up the whole tone of the amp. I have a few of these same heads without the loop so I always suspected the loop as the cause of the difference in sound/tone and feel of this one. Tonight I decided to get rid of it, with the idea that I would just put it back if it turned out to be just the amp itself. Now I'm just bummed that the chassis was ever drilled out in the first place.... previous owner had the loop put in. I guess the metro loop just does not work well with these amps... so a word of warning to Wizard owners!

the amp sounds absolutely killer now...just like the others, tight and snarly everything is back in full form. Anyone else have issues with the metro loop?

 

[JTyson]

Weird, I've always heard good stuff about that loop. Great stuff, actually
I know 2 people running them and they love them. Both of those amps sound great, but neither is a Wizard..
Maybe something was amiss with the installation?

 

[fuzzyguitars]

i second this

i have heard lots of amps that have em in them, couldnt really hear the difference.

who installed the loop? what does ric use for his loops

does he recommend his new amps with or without loops?

 

[glip22]

My MCII has the loop that is bypassable. I can't hear much, if any, differnce at all. Loop works great. The Wizard is very sensitive. Maybe it did not like the Metro loop. It could have been the voltages or other things that were affecting it.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Give ya 50$ for that loop! Works fine in my amps.

 

[lester]

My MCII has the loop that is bypassable. I can't hear much, if any, differnce at all. Loop works great. The Wizard is very sensitive. Maybe it did not like the Metro loop. It could have been the voltages or other things that were affecting it.

Yeah it sounds like it wasn't done right.

"The Metro Zero Loss loop is not a simple thing to get to the point where it's "zero loss". IE: it is contingent on the B+ voltage being just right, additionally when you hook up the loop to the B+/high voltage line it draws current (which it is supposed to do) but it lowers the B+ effectively changing the sound/feel to the other preamp tubes. In order to get it to be zero-loss you have to restructure the voltages."

 

[blackie13]

there is no "transparent loop"...
Get rid of it asap...
Use a dry-wet system(it's pretty cheap if you knw how to do it)...

 

[bwgintegra]

Did it have the switch to take the loop out of the circuit? Friedman uses those loops and on my BE-100 I could turn it off/on with toggle switch. I always thought it sounded great, I think who ever installed didn't do it correctly.

 

[Shiny_Surface]

"The Metro Zero Loss loop is not a simple thing to get to the point where it's "zero loss". IE: it is contingent on the B+ voltage being just right, additionally when you hook up the loop to the B+/high voltage line it draws current (which it is supposed to do) but it lowers the B+ effectively changing the sound/feel to the other preamp tubes. In order to get it to be zero-loss you have to restructure the voltages."

When I had a Zero Loss loop installed I remember being told there was a flat fee to install the loop strictly according to the instructions, or you could pay for more time it would take to restructure the voltages to minimize the loop adversely affecting the tone of the amp.

As a layman I can't say how much truth is in that, but I chose the latter because I liked how my amp sounded...

 

[bwgintegra]

"The Metro Zero Loss loop is not a simple thing to get to the point where it's "zero loss". IE: it is contingent on the B+ voltage being just right, additionally when you hook up the loop to the B+/high voltage line it draws current (which it is supposed to do) but it lowers the B+ effectively changing the sound/feel to the other preamp tubes. In order to get it to be zero-loss you have to restructure the voltages."

When I had a Zero Loss loop installed I remember being told there was a flat fee to install the loop strictly according to the instructions, or you could pay for more time it would take to restructure the voltages to minimize the loop adversely affecting the tone of the amp.

As a layman I can't say how much truth is in that, but I chose the latter because I liked how my amp sounded...

Lester is correct, when I install them I check the B+ before and then check it after to see what the voltage drop is. You can then change some resistor values to get the B+ back up. I would re install the loop and a on/off and if it's a 2 channel amp add a pot on the loop return so the channels can be balanced when using the loop.

 

[lespaul6]

"The Metro Zero Loss loop is not a simple thing to get to the point where it's "zero loss". IE: it is contingent on the B+ voltage being just right, additionally when you hook up the loop to the B+/high voltage line it draws current (which it is supposed to do) but it lowers the B+ effectively changing the sound/feel to the other preamp tubes. In order to get it to be zero-loss you have to restructure the voltages."

When I had a Zero Loss loop installed I remember being told there was a flat fee to install the loop strictly according to the instructions, or you could pay for more time it would take to restructure the voltages to minimize the loop adversely affecting the tone of the amp.

As a layman I can't say how much truth is in that, but I chose the latter because I liked how my amp sounded...

Lester is correct, when I install them I check the B+ before and then check it after to see what the voltage drop is. You can then change some resistor values to get the B+ back up. I would re install the loop and a on/off and if it's a 2 channel amp add a pot on the loop return so the channels can be balanced when using the loop.

I suspect that this was the case... it was installed by Andrews amp lab in Georgia... the work was clean but I know it was just installed without any fine tuning based on how it sounded alone. It had the bypassable switch. I also read the revision 3a instructions before I pulled it out and the last step was skipped.. I think primarily because the Wizard was set up different on that part of the board.. so the guy just probably said screw it, hook it up and let the customer run effects through it. I have a really critical ear though, I'm not the average customer- a little ocd about things.. can be good and bad at times! Anyway, its out and it sounds glorious.

 

[glip22]

My MCII has the loop that is bypassable. I can't hear much, if any, differnce at all. Loop works great. The Wizard is very sensitive. Maybe it did not like the Metro loop. It could have been the voltages or other things that were affecting it.

Yeah it sounds like it wasn't done right.

"The Metro Zero Loss loop is not a simple thing to get to the point where it's "zero loss". IE: it is contingent on the B+ voltage being just right, additionally when you hook up the loop to the B+/high voltage line it draws current (which it is supposed to do) but it lowers the B+ effectively changing the sound/feel to the other preamp tubes. In order to get it to be zero-loss you have to restructure the voltages."

That's what it sounds like. Good thread. The voltage needs to be correctly tweaked for it to be transparent. Good posts here.

 

[lespaul6]

I agree, great information here... I have heard great things about the tube buffered loop that Rick uses. I'll just go wet/dry if I have to use a little delay...I never liked loops anyway.

 

[zuel69]

b.s., the metro loop is amazing. Yea for the best result using ohms law to figure out the best resistor combo is the right way to do it..it's not for everybody, but that loop is impressive to say the least. The internal trim pot on the zero loss loop really needs to be dialed in as well.

there is no "transparent loop"...
Get rid of it asap...
Use a dry-wet system(it's pretty cheap if you knw how to do it)...

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

b.s., the metro loop is amazing. Yea for the best result using ohms law to figure out the best resistor combo is the right way to do it..it's not for everybody, but that loop is impressive to say the least. The internal trim pot on the zero loss loop really needs to be dialed in as well.

there is no "transparent loop"...
Get rid of it asap...
Use a dry-wet system(it's pretty cheap if you knw how to do it)...

+1 .. it may require playing with one resistor to fine tune the B+ but my ears are picky as hell and I notice virtually nothing when switching it in and out. Love that loop.

As for going wet/dry, you can't really say there is a "cheap" solution to it as you are talking 100$ for the loop vs what, a stereo cab with a EH magnum poweramp in a pedal? I suppose with a 2 x 12 you could do this but if you play it on stage, you need to decide which speaker you mic up unless you mic both and play in stereo. Or Ideally, I suppose you could bring your own mixer and pump your mic'ed signal back through another channel which goes to an outboard effect and then send the output to the front of the house but here you have more things in the chain and more things that might go wrong..

 

[Scumback Speakers]

Just an FYI on the Metro loop...it's really very good. But if you get one bad chip/resistor in it, like any other circuit, it can go south.

My amp tech was working on one in one of his client's amps. Sounded like A$$. Then he measured the voltage going in/out and apparently it was damaged/defective, whatever.

I had one brand new here, so he came over and got it, put it in his client's amp, and it was as good as new, no noise, issues, etc.

So it's not unheard of that one is bad, or got damaged. I have one in one of my demo 100w with an identical 100w w/o the Metro loop, and you can't hear any difference.

I think the OP just had one that was defective or something. What the OP is experiencing is not normal.

 

[BAN-ONE]

Just an FYI on the Metro loop...it's really very good. But if you get one bad chip/resistor in it, like any other circuit, it can go south.

My amp tech was working on one in one of his client's amps. Sounded like A$$. Then he measured the voltage going in/out and apparently it was damaged/defective, whatever.

I had one brand new here, so he came over and got it, put it in his client's amp, and it was as good as new, no noise, issues, etc.

So it's not unheard of that one is bad, or got damaged. I have one in one of my demo 100w with an identical 100w w/o the Metro loop, and you can't hear any difference.

I think the OP just had one that was defective or something. What the OP is experiencing is normal.

Agreed. I just installed one in my MC50 and it's killer! It was dialled in on installation and sounds awesome.

 

[Scumback Speakers]

Ha, mistype. I added "not" in front of normal in the post above. Figured I'd better clarify that!

Glad to hear your Metro loop is working well for you.

 

[glip22]

Ha, mistype. I added "not" in front of normal in the post above. Figured I'd better clarify that!

Glad to hear your Metro loop is working well for you.

I think you're "Normal" Jim

 

[lespaul6]

Just an FYI on the Metro loop...it's really very good. But if you get one bad chip/resistor in it, like any other circuit, it can go south.

My amp tech was working on one in one of his client's amps. Sounded like A$$. Then he measured the voltage going in/out and apparently it was damaged/defective, whatever.

I had one brand new here, so he came over and got it, put it in his client's amp, and it was as good as new, no noise, issues, etc.

So it's not unheard of that one is bad, or got damaged. I have one in one of my demo 100w with an identical 100w w/o the Metro loop, and you can't hear any difference.

I think the OP just had one that was defective or something. What the OP is experiencing is normal.

Agreed. I just installed one in my MC50 and it's killer! It was dialled in on installation and sounds awesome.

Can you post a pic of how your loop was connected both to the board and from the board to the master etc.. curious