Luthier Setup Question

[Copperhead]

Trying to get lower action.
The guitar that has action that I like is a Wolfgang. String height at 1 bass to treble side is .012 - .009
Relief is .004 treble side, .007 bass...

The guitar I'm working on is 25-1/2" scale.
String height at 1 is .013 - .010, bass to treble.
I've got a lot of relief going on in an attempt to eliminate fretting out 5-8 top three strings. Relief is level across the neck at .009!!

Do I shim the nut a little higher and flatten out the neck, or take a little tilt back out of the neck shim? Or a little of both?

Thanks!!

 

[Code001]

.009 is more like average relief. For nut height, you want to lower it until it buzzes, then slowly raise it up until it stops buzzing. That should be roughly perfect nut height. Nut height doesn't affect anything after you fret. After all, your fingers effectively become the nut once you fret. You say you're trying to lower the action, but what's wrong with just lowering the saddles? Is your fretting out at around 5-8 the issue?

 

[Copperhead]

.009 is more like average relief. For nut height, you want to lower it until it buzzes, then slowly raise it up until it stops buzzing. That should be roughly perfect nut height. Nut height doesn't affect anything after you fret. After all, your fingers effectively become the nut once you fret. You say you're trying to lower the action, but what's wrong with just lowering the saddles? Is your fretting out at around 5-8 the issue?

I'm just using the nut height as a reference for a starting point.
Fretting out at 5-8 is the issue, I want lower action. I'm used to seeing real flat relief, but 'whatever works' is OK with me. After years of tweeking on the Wolfgangs, I realize the rules may change a little on the 25.5 scale.
Also the pocket is off a bit. I've built a jig so I can rout it flat to the bridge, it's just too much to shim, need like a wedge parallel to the frets. But first, I want to get the action situation under control. I'm thinking of just taking the tilt shims out and starting flat in the pocket to see if that gets me closer to where I want to go. I appreciate the input, I've never had a setup so 'out of wack'. Neck is new, 0 fret wear, has been dressed and levelled at the factory...
I'm going to measure the neck real good, if it's off it would be so much easier to mill on the back of the neck then to rout on the pocket.

 

[Copperhead]

It's OFR, dive only. Needs to sit flat on the body. Right now the bass side is up in the air like a seesaw......and I need the treble side lower!!!

 

[Code001]

It's always best to start with a clean, flat neck pocket and go from there. The 5-8 issue could be a problem with the actual wood of the neck, or it could be a fret problem. The difference between scales really shouldn't make that much of a difference. You say the neck pocket is off. Do you mean in terms of the bottom of the pocket being level or it favoring one side to the other (ex. high e coming off the fretboard)?

 

[Copperhead]

It's always best to start with a clean, flat neck pocket and go from there. The 5-8 issue could be a problem with the actual wood of the neck, or it could be a fret problem. The difference between scales really shouldn't make that much of a difference. You say the neck pocket is off. Do you mean in terms of the bottom of the pocket being level or it favoring one side to the other (ex. high e coming off the fretboard)?

We're going to say it's not a fret or board problem This is the third try from the manufacturer. On any guitar, this is usually the spot where I notice I'm at the "that's all folks" point of low action, starting to fret out 5-8 on the treble side. So I will pull the shims and give 'er a go.
Neck pocket is off far on level AND on string alignment. I've already removed 1/32" to deal with the string alignment but have not touched the level issue yet. It is playable now, but not centered. I've already got a little ledge going on the access side. I may cut the pocket wall a little more, but on a slight angle to rotate the neck a wee bit to help with centering the strings.
I'll probably cut a wedge to put in there temporarily to see how much I've got to go for level before I start making swamp ash saw dust.

 

[Code001]

Can you do me a favor and measure your action at the 12th fret? More than anything, the numbers you're listing for action are a little confusing to me. For reference, I like SUPER LOW action on my guitars, and that means my treble side will be 1/32nd (0.03125'') and the bass closer to 1/16th (0.0625''), since it's a 7 string. The way you describe the neck pocket has me a little weary about how everything else is put together.

 

[Copperhead]

Can you do me a favor and measure your action at the 12th fret? More than anything, the numbers you're listing for action are a little confusing to me. For reference, I like SUPER LOW action on my guitars, and that means my treble side will be 1/32nd (0.03125'') and the bass closer to 1/16th (0.0625''), since it's a 7 string. The way you describe the neck pocket has me a little weary about how everything else is put together.

I'll have to measure it tonight when I get home. Probably around .08 -.10. I'd be happy with .04 on the treble side, that's about where my Wolfgangs are. As far as the bridge angle, I just think a 'dive only' sounds better when the base plate sits fully on the body. Of course on a free floater it doesn't matter.
It stays in tune and everything, and the tone is very good. Worst comes to worst we can get the frets dressed by someone else, which I'm going to do, but I want to get it as close as I can beforehand.

 

[Code001]

Can you do me a favor and measure your action at the 12th fret? More than anything, the numbers you're listing for action are a little confusing to me. For reference, I like SUPER LOW action on my guitars, and that means my treble side will be 1/32nd (0.03125'') and the bass closer to 1/16th (0.0625''), since it's a 7 string. The way you describe the neck pocket has me a little weary about how everything else is put together.

I'll have to measure it tonight when I get home. Probably around .08 -.10. I'd be happy with .04 on the treble side, that's about where my Wolfgangs are. As far as the bridge angle, I just think a 'dive only' sounds better when the base plate sits fully on the body. Of course on a free floater it doesn't matter.
It stays in tune and everything, and the tone is very good. Worst comes to worst we can get the frets dressed by someone else, which I'm going to do, but I want to get it as close as I can beforehand.

I understand what you mean about the bridge. Don't forget that shim placement (closer towards the bridge or closer towards the headstock) are basically inverses of each other. Check this small tidbit out for a clearer description:

http://www.jemsite.com/articles/22-tech ... #neckangle

 

[Copperhead]

Thanks
On a free floater, you're just changing the height of the bridge to the body slightly. With a fixed bridge or dive only, you have this whole angle of attack nonsense going on, so I think the geometry is a little different.

 

[Code001]

Thanks
On a free floater, you're just changing the height of the bridge to the body slightly. With a fixed bridge or dive only, you have this whole angle of attack nonsense going on, so I think the geometry is a little different.

It should works the same, regardless. Honestly, I prefer setting up dive-only bridges perfectly parallel. That means there will be a very very small amount of pull-up possible. Other people prefer setting them up the way you're describing for various reasons.