new 4x12 cab is severely lacking low-end. normal?

[JimmyDoomsday]

so as some of you know, i bought an avatar 4x12 with two celestion v30's and two celestion t75's. i specifically selected these speakers for two things: the low end and the scooped mids. i'm running an engl savage 120 through this cab and even with the bass cranked to 10, there is very, very little low end punch. i know it takes some time for new speakers to break in, but i've played brand new cabs right out of the box that had way more bass response than this. i've played it maybe 20-24 hours total so far and the sound hasn't dampened much at all. also, the cab has sort of a 3d/stereo sound to it which is very odd and it's difficult to adequately shape my tone with this phenomenon happening. it's a unique sound and it's definitely got some character to it, but the sound is not at all localized and is very chaotic and all over the place. is all this just a case of the speakers needing time to settle and find their voice, or is there something else going on here?

 

[garbagetruckdriver]

first guess would be one or more of the speakers is hooked up with reverse polarity to the others. That would give you phase cancellation and result in a hollow sound - much like you are describing. I'd check the wiring first.

 

[some dude]

i bought an avatar 4x12 with two celestion v30's and two celestion t75's. i specifically selected these speakers for two things: the low end and the scooped mids.

Well, aside from the fact that V30s lack low end and are the exact opposite of scooped.... still, the T75s should help carry the bottom end.

Are we talking 20-25 hours of loud playing? Or bedroom/don't piss off the neighbour volumes? Lacking bottom end is typically an unbroken in speaker thing, but usually 5-7 hours of LOUD playing has been enough for the ones I've broken in in the past.

 

[steve_k]

Wouldn't be the first time a cab left the factory with the speakers wired out of phase. Open it up and have a look. If you are unsure, post a pic of the wiring.

Steve

 

[JimmyDoomsday]

probably about half and half between low volume and cranked full-band practice.

i will be back at the studio tomorrow and will take pics since i haven't the faintest idea about wiring.

 

[Ventura]

Wiring is pooched... Phase issues.

V.

 

[srinivassa]

I was going to make a suggestion, but then I reread your post. What you are describing sounds exactly like a phase issue. The above posters are correct.

Here is a basic diagram for 8 Ohm speakers and an 8 Ohm cab. It will be the same for a 16 Ohm cab with 16 Ohm speakers.

 

[TeleBlaster]

Plug your speaker cable into the cab.
Get a 9v battery, and hold the sleeve of the other plug end of the cable against one of the battery terminals, and tap the tip on the other terminal.
When you energize the speakers the cones should all move in the same direction simultaneously.
If one or two are opposite from the others then you've found your problem.

 

[JimmyDoomsday]

thanks for the responses guys. i will try out that test method, check the wiring as per that diagram, and will post pics on saturday for additional help/info.

 

[Scumback Speakers]

Sounds like it's one of two things (or both).

1) Wiring out of phase.
2) Speaker bolts too tight, causing the frames to warp/bend, and producing no low end, too much high end.

Here's how to install/reinstall your speakers.

http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/speakermounting.pdf

Good luck!

 

[killertone]

2) Speaker bolts too tight, causing the frames to warp/bend, and producing no low end, too much high end.

Here's how to install/reinstall your speakers.

http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/speakermounting.pdf

Good luck!

Man, that is excellent info. Thanks for posting that. Is this info good for a front loaded cab as well?

 

[Digital Jams]

how easy is it to bend a frame? I will tighten down hard but I do not think I am appling that kind of torque to twist a frame.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Shit, I've swapped speakers a bunch of times and used a drill each time.... woopsie. I always though tighter the better. Might explain some of the woofiness.

 

[Scumback Speakers]

Man, that is excellent info. Thanks for posting that. Is this info good for a front loaded cab as well?

Yes.

how easy is it to bend a frame? I will tighten down hard but I do not think I am appling that kind of torque to twist a frame.

It's a lot easier than you think. I've got two different electric drills I use. One has a range from 0-15 (locked), the other 0-24 (locked). Two different brands, yet they both work at 7 on tightening speakers the same as my hand tightening method (go figure on that one!).

There's an easy way to calibrate your electric drill, though. Just tighten up the bolts as I've outlined in the pdf. Set your drill to 1, see if it backs the bolt out (probably not), then just increase it until it does, then you know what the acceptable torque specs are for YOUR drill. Not everyone's drill, just yours.

After you've figured out the correct torque setting (6,7,8,9 or whatever), you still need to do it the right way. With an electric drill, I get all the bolts just hand tight to the frame (barely touching), then I set the torque to 1/2 of what your drill is calibrated to, and I go in an X pattern for tightening in one pass, then set it to 7 (or whatever your drill setting is) for the 2nd pass.

So you do it once, and you're good from then on out, or until your battery is low, or your drill breaks.

After installing something like...oh...2-3000 speakers, this is what has wound up working for me for the last 9-10 years since I got into this mad speaker testing business.

But what the hell do I know, right?

 

[Digital Jams]

Nice, thanks for the post!

Have to admit I am old school and flat out use a screwdriver, always used the x-pattern method of tightening down as well.

Only done maybe a dozen cabs though so that may be the reason for the old school screwdriver

 

[Jimmie]

But what the hell do I know, right?

I have faith you'll get it right one of these days.

Seriously though, thanks for the great info. We'd all like to think that craftsmanship is of the highest standards, but how many workers are really really, cross torquing the frame against the cab with extreme care and diligence? In this day and age its "how fast can I crank this shit out cause the boss is breathing down my neck."

Hope it all works out for the OP.

Jimmie

 

[JimmyDoomsday]

so here's what we got. lemme know if anything looks suspicious.

 

[Scumback Speakers]

Now you know why I use red & black wiring, sir. I can't tell what's hot/positve, or gound/negative in those pics.

Is that silver and gold wire? If so, the silver appears to come off the negative jack post, and the gold is the positive jack post, and this would be the diagram to follow.

I zoomed in on your last pic. Looks to me like the far right hand wire is wrong. Swap the top to the bottom on the far right wire in this pic and try that. If I'm seeing it right, this speaker pair is out of phase.

 

[JimmyDoomsday]

in that enlarged photo; bottom speaker - left side is positive. top speaker - right side is positive.

 

[Gooseman]

I am not a fan of Avatar speaker cabs. I bought one a long time ago and found it to be terrible. Seriously, just terrible. After a month, I bought a Mesa and compared it. Some may claim I was comparing apples to oranges, but let me tell you -- the Avatar was an unusually quiet cab. I didn't get why and still can't understand it to this day. Needless to say I was not impressed.