Orange Rockerverb 100 MKIII or Bogner Shiva 20th?

[Z_13]

Hey guys! I'm thinking about buying an amp over the next week or two. As the title states, I'm going between a Rockerverb 100 MKIII, and a Bogner Shiva 20th. I've owned a Rockerverb, and really did enjoy the tone. Had to get rid of it, but am strongly considering another one. On the other hand, I love Bogners, LOVE BOGNERS. I've owned 3 Uberschalls, and have played on a few others. I know the 20th Shiva has more gain than the original Shiva, and that is actually something right up my alley.

I have absolutely no stores in my area that carry 20th Shivas. So, I was just hoping some of you could possibly point me in a direction that will help my ultimate decision.

I'm mainly looking for versatility. I know the Orange can be used from clean/gritty tones, all the way to metal. Jim Root of Slipknot uses a Rockerverb, with no OD pedal. I feel like the Rockerverb is very versatile. However, I've read a little bit about how incredible versatile the Shiva 20th is....tough decision.

I have a couple questions...

1.) How much gain is on tap? I play anything from indie rock, to metal. Does the Shiva 20th have more gain on tap than the Orange? or does the Rockerverb have more gain than the Shiva?

2.) Which amp has a better effects loop? Cleaner...more transparent?

3.) I've read the Shiva has a better, "fuller" clean than the Orange. Would you guys agree?

4.) Lastly, I know the amp comes with KT88's. However, I've read you can put in EL34's with no need to bias. Is this true??

Thank you all in advance! I know these are questions that people don't like to answer, due to the fact that everyone likes their own things. However, not being able to check out the Shiva 20th in person, I'd really like to know how it compares to the Rockerverb. Please, any advice/opinions would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks again!

 

[jdel77]

The Orange is cool but the Shiva is built better in my opinion.
For me it's all about the quality of the output transformers. The better they are, the better the amp will respond and sound at gig volume.
I'd be researching what transformers each use, but I can't imagine Bogner using inferior ones to Orange.

 

[Z_13]

I agree, I think Bogner quality is better. That's one of the things pulling me towards the Shiva. I loved all the Bogners I've owned, and played. If the Shiva has more gain on tap than the Rockerverb, I'll probably end up going with it.

I'll look into their transformers, and compare them. Thanks!!

 

[supersonic]

This video is pretty accurate to how a 20th Shiva sounds with EL34s'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f3ANIms07U I wouldn't recommend it as a metal amp though.

 

[FourT6and2]

Shiva is not a modern metal amp. It won't do Slipknot.

Better cleans than the Orange.

You NEED to bias any amp when you change tubes. Period. Well, at least amps such as these. Some amps self-bias. But these are not those.

 

[monkey42]

I've had a shiva anniversary and it's a great high gainer but not metal

 

[the4thlast1]

Yeah the 20th Shiva sounds killer but not a Metal amp really. Can do old school metal good (not thrash though)) and its pushing it with modern stuff.

 

[GregM]

Keep in mind that a huge part of Root's recorded tone is his modded Uberschall which is blended with the Rockerverb.

 

[slash57]

some guy posted a vid of the shiva 20th here, that's definitely brutal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm85j5W9LCE&t=3s

 

[Z_13]

Thanks or the reply everyone! I know I said I play metal, but I'm not necessarily looking for a "metal" amp...otherwise I'd probably just get an Uberschall, Recto, Herbert, etc. The metal that I play is more like Mastodon. Not super articulate, not thrash. More like hard rock.

So, I'm assuming if Jim from Slipknot runs a Rockerverb with no boost, that it must have a decent amount of gain. The videos I've watched of the 20th Shiva seems like it has more gain, and more of an aggressive, modern sound. However, videos can be deceiving.

So, does the Orange have more gain than the Shiva? Which amp will get me further in the hard rock, heavier distortion thing. The more gain the better, just because I can dial it back, rather than want more.

Thanks!

 

[supersonic]

I find the 20th Shiva falls apart when you dial up the gain past 12:00. It's more like fuzz.

 

[the4thlast1]

some guy posted a vid of the shiva 20th here, that's definitely brutal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm85j5W9LCE&t=3s

Yeah but check out his butterslax video he plays faster metal,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvO7C3Rlris

Its the quick picking that I find isnt great with the 20th Shiva. It can do that Tool stuff he played in the video well because it does have a nice aggressive character to the voicing. Its not gonna keep up with Testament or even Killswitch Engage type stuff that well..If you boost the shit out of it to tighten up the attack yeah but its till wouldnt be my first choice. A 5150 would do that better.....

Now if you want Tool and more stoner type metal yeah the Shiva would do it pretty good...For me the 20th Shiva is the perfect Alice in Chains type of sound, Aggresive and Heavy rock at its finest , not hair metal , not modern metal...The Shiva has attitude !

 

[Starman22]

Thanks or the reply everyone! I know I said I play metal, but I'm not necessarily looking for a "metal" amp...otherwise I'd probably just get an Uberschall, Recto, Herbert, etc. The metal that I play is more like Mastodon. Not super articulate, not thrash. More like hard rock.

So, I'm assuming if Jim from Slipknot runs a Rockerverb with no boost, that it must have a decent amount of gain. The videos I've watched of the 20th Shiva seems like it has more gain, and more of an aggressive, modern sound. However, videos can be deceiving.

So, does the Orange have more gain than the Shiva? Which amp will get me further in the hard rock, heavier distortion thing. The more gain the better, just because I can dial it back, rather than want more.

Thanks!

The Rockerverbs have a lot of gain. Anything past 1:00 is silly and turns to fuzz. A clean boost in the loop turns the dirt channel into a monster and makes it tight. I'm not understanding the "quality" issue stated about Orange vs. Bogner? The Orange RV is built like a tank.
If you are into Mastodon and such then a Rockerverb or Thunderverb is the correct amp. The cleans on the RV will start to grit if you dig into it however. Not crystal clear at all.

 

[GregM]

Jim was still using a MKI and MKII but had a MKIII on the road this year, the MKIII has more gain than the MKII. I have a MKII and an OD808 in front as a clean boost to tighten it up, as mentioned above I'm at 1-2:00 on the gain and no more. Mine gets tighter and punchier with the power amp driven harder.

Here's a video of Jim with a MKIII. I don't remember off the top of my head 100% but I don't remember him having a boost on his board.

 

[mooncobra]

bogner, its not even a contest!!

 

[FourT6and2]

some guy posted a vid of the shiva 20th here, that's definitely brutal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm85j5W9LCE&t=3s

Yeah but check out his butterslax video he plays faster metal,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvO7C3Rlris

Its the quick picking that I find isnt great with the 20th Shiva. It can do that Tool stuff he played in the video well because it does have a nice aggressive character to the voicing. Its not gonna keep up with Testament or even Killswitch Engage type stuff that well..If you boost the shit out of it to tighten up the attack yeah but its till wouldnt be my first choice. A 5150 would do that better.....

Now if you want Tool and more stoner type metal yeah the Shiva would do it pretty good...For me the 20th Shiva is the perfect Alice in Chains type of sound, Aggresive and Heavy rock at its finest , not hair metal , not modern metal...The Shiva has attitude !

Yeah, spot on.

 

[ProgFree]

I know I said I play metal, but I'm not necessarily looking for a "metal" amp...otherwise I'd probably just get an Uberschall, Recto, Herbert, etc. The metal that I play is more like Mastodon. Not super articulate, not thrash. More like hard rock.

If you are after mastodon studio sounds then you'll want a Diezel VH4 or a Marshall JMP/JCM800. As for Bogner vs Orange, like someone wrote, they are not even comparable quality wise...

 

[ericsabbath]

I'd take a regular el34 shiva over both any day
it just sounds way better than the 20th ann version side by side, in my opinion
sounds thicker, fuller and has better dynamics
it does have a lot less gain, but sounds amazing with most pedals (compressors, equalizers, clean boosters and overdrives)
it will do metal with the proper booster

 

[Z_13]

Thanks for all the replies again! I just added another amp to my list, which stretches my money thin...a 20th Bogner Ecstasy. I found one in my price range...kind of. The only way I'll pull the trigger on that is if I feel like it is worth the money, and can be more versatile than either of the others I'm looking at.

So, lets throw this one into the mix...as a comparison. Does the 20th Ecstasy have more gain on tap than either the Orange, or 20th Shiva? I'm a huge fan of using the amp to get the dirty sound, not an OD pedal. I'm not against using OD pedals, and own a couple...however, I prefer the amp to be able to do it itself. That's the reason I'm concerned about the gain available with each of these amps. I'd rather have too much than not enough.

How does the 20th Ecstasy compare to the 101b....is it really worth the extra money?

Back to the 20th Shiva, and Orange. I'm still trying to figure out which one has more gain, and more saturation in the dirty channel. I understand that neither of these amps are ideal for metal, but again...I'm not really going for the brutal metal tone, if I was, an Uberschall, Herbert, VH4, Rectifier, etc would be the amp I'd go for. I'm just looking for the most versatile of the two, with the gain structure being the highlight. If the 20th Shiva, with the mode switch engaged, has a heavier, saturated distortion over the Orange, then that's the winner. I've owned the Orange Rockerverb MKIII, and enjoyed it. That's why I'm thinking about going back. However, something about a Bogner...

Again, which ever one can get more gain direct from the amp will be the winner.

Then we got the 20th Ecstasy....

 

[supersonic]

Thanks for all the replies again! I just added another amp to my list, which stretches my money thin...a 20th Bogner Ecstasy. I found one in my price range...kind of. The only way I'll pull the trigger on that is if I feel like it is worth the money, and can be more versatile than either of the others I'm looking at.

So, lets throw this one into the mix...as a comparison. Does the 20th Ecstasy have more gain on tap than either the Orange, or 20th Shiva? I'm a huge fan of using the amp to get the dirty sound, not an OD pedal. I'm not against using OD pedals, and own a couple...however, I prefer the amp to be able to do it itself. That's the reason I'm concerned about the gain available with each of these amps. I'd rather have too much than not enough.

How does the 20th Ecstasy compare to the 101b....is it really worth the extra money?

Back to the 20th Shiva, and Orange. I'm still trying to figure out which one has more gain, and more saturation in the dirty channel. I understand that neither of these amps are ideal for metal, but again...I'm not really going for the brutal metal tone, if I was, an Uberschall, Herbert, VH4, Rectifier, etc would be the amp I'd go for. I'm just looking for the most versatile of the two, with the gain structure being the highlight. If the 20th Shiva, with the mode switch engaged, has a heavier, saturated distortion over the Orange, then that's the winner. I've owned the Orange Rockerverb MKIII, and enjoyed it. That's why I'm thinking about going back. However, something about a Bogner...

Again, which ever one can get more gain direct from the amp will be the winner.

Then we got the 20th Ecstasy....

I own a 100B XTC, I've played a 20th XTC briefly and did own a 20th Shiva. The 20th XTC is far superior to the 20th Shiva to my ears and needs. That would be my pick of the three.
The 20th XTC has way more useable gain than the Shiva, the Shivas' gain falls apart where the XTC stays tighter.
The 20th XTC is more open sounding than the 101B, the 101B is more compressed. I prefer the 20th.