Slaving vs Attenuating vs Load + IR

[cardinal]

What did you capture with? ToneX?

Had a QC but now use a Nano Cortex which for some reason seems to work better imho. I could not get a Kemper to sound right, but could be user error.

I may try ToneX. I'm ended up with a laptop with an NVIDIA card that can make the captures within a reasonable time, so now ToneX is on the table for me.

 

[harddriver]

I'm assuming you go into FX loop of the soldano. I just pulled out my Suhr Iso box. I should have a go at that between my 100 watter and the Torpedo set to Load and put the line out through the Metro FX return of my 50 watt 2204 and give that a go. Shoot them all out against one another. Maybe SS does the slaving thing better but I think Al Estrada had posted a clip a while back of him slaving a plexi through a JCM 800 combo and it sounded bitchin.

Even Al said the JCM800's were loud at that show. If you slave and run the slave amps at a very low volume your still not get what your are after since you are not driving the speakers at a good volume by the slave amps.

Al Estrada was using the Suhr reactive load for the 100 watt Superlead and then used two JCM800 into the effect returns as slave amps each amp driving two 4x12 cabinets.

The Two Notes Reload II which is supposed to handle 200 watts looks promising for IR's and the Genome software cabinet/speaker selections then using the studio speakers to reproduce a lower volume what one would hear in front of a loud speaker being driven at loud volume.

I don't think there is a single magic bullet, you just have to find what works good enough for you at the volume level you are looking to achieve.

 

[harddriver]

Had a QC but now use a Nano Cortex which for some reason seems to work better imho. I could not get a Kemper to sound right, but could be user error.

I may try ToneX. I'm ended up with a laptop with an NVIDIA card that can make the captures within a reasonable time, so now ToneX is on the table for me.

The Tonex 78/79 captures sound quite good and are impressive though they may not feel like an actual amp while playing it.

 

[tallcoolone]

See this demo.. if you can't hear the effect it has on fullness and how it has sucked out the mids, I don't know what to tell you. I guess it is acceptable for all those players but it for sure is squeezing the tone. My Reload first gen does a better job than that I think.

Arite I checked it out. First thing I thought was I'm not in a rush to go try out a Headfirst amp. Second, yeah I agree the Waza in the chain sounded almost 'grittier' when I went back and forth between the two. I def liked the tone without the cheaper, smaller with a different underpowered power amp that I've never played Waza better

I agree that when going back and forth with no gap you can discern one from the other. But I'd bet $1000 against anyone doing it 9 times out of 10 with a 30sec gap between clips. Is that really, "100% taking away from the tone"? I guess technically yes but I'm sure everyone would agree they all do that. The real test should be TAE, Ironman, PS...at least then it gives you a somewhat useful baseline for your search

 

[SpiderWars]

I don't know what it takes to get better punch and sizzle out of a loadboxed amp. Part of it is just the physics of volume, loader punches harder. But it would be nice if there was a 'Loudness' button on these SS power amps like on home stereos. Just for low volume playing.

 

[tallcoolone]

I don't know what it takes to get better punch and sizzle out of a loadboxed amp. Part of it is just the physics of volume, loader punches harder. But it would be nice if there was a 'Loudness' button on these SS power amps like on home stereos. Just for low volume playing.

You learn pretty quick when using a modeler for everything to not use your "home" patch live. "Home" patch I'd essentially throw a "V" shaped eq in the loop and after a few tries I got it to translate pretty well. Worst/most difficult part of modeling IMO. Cranking up your PA at home is not as fun as doing the same w/a good Marshall.

I don't find the same issue with most attenuators unless you have to really choke them down. And at that point it's best just to skip guitar cabs altogether.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Arite I checked it out. First thing I thought was I'm not in a rush to go try out a Headfirst amp. Second, yeah I agree the Waza in the chain sounded almost 'grittier' when I went back and forth between the two. I def liked the tone without the cheaper, smaller with a different underpowered power amp that I've never played Waza better

I agree that when going back and forth with no gap you can discern one from the other. But I'd bet $1000 against anyone doing it 9 times out of 10 with a 30sec gap between clips. Is that really, "100% taking away from the tone"? I guess technically yes but I'm sure everyone would agree they all do that. The real test should be TAE, Ironman, PS...at least then it gives you a somewhat useful baseline for your search

That's a fair assumption to make.. I think I probably would find the same with my Reload. It's def a good tone but when compared, it isn't AS good. But I guess if I am able to get the amp up on the MV and have to sacrifice a bit of the "pure" tone for more power section gain, I have to live with the trade off as most do. I bring the Reload down to a little over half way and I can still get the speakers moving, not annoy the wife/kids in the house, and get a very good usable tone. I just have to accept the fact that there is nothing better than wide open, no attenuation and into a 4 x 12. It just takes a real dedicated studio space or amp room to do it.

If I were to start today from scratch? I'd probably go Reload II or Ironman II and call it a day.

 

[Greazygeo]

Even Al said the JCM800's were loud at that show. If you slave and run the slave amps at a very low volume your still not get what your are after since you are not driving the speakers at a good volume by the slave amps.

Al Estrada was using the Suhr reactive load for the 100 watt Superlead and then used two JCM800 into the effect returns as slave amps each amp driving two 4x12 cabinets.

The Two Notes Reload II which is supposed to handle 200 watts looks promising for IR's and the Genome software cabinet/speaker selections then using the studio speakers to reproduce a lower volume what one would hear in front of a loud speaker being driven at loud volume.

I don't think there is a single magic bullet, you just have to find what works good enough for you at the volume level you are looking to achieve.

This is what I did back in the early 90’s…my main modded Superlead into a Juice Extractor thru my fx and then i to two JMP’s that had power amp inputs. Each drove a 412 cab. Great sound loud or quiet.

 

[Meeotch]

My favorite setup for this so far is running my chosen amp into the Suhr Reactive Load IR, hi cut on, then line out into my 2150. The double impedance curves will naturally scoop your tone a bit, so an EQ between the SRL and poweramp is helpful for fine tuning. This setup left the Power Station in the dust, but is obviously more cumbersome to travel with or implement outside a studio environment.

Also, keep an eye on the new Celestion Peace Maker.

 

[stratjacket]

I've used a Suhr RL since they were launched around 2016 i think. A few months ago I bought a RedSEVEN Evo Central and love that too. I just think of the Reactive Loads as speakers, special speakers that can have various EQ curves (IR's) thrown on them to adjust the sound.

To the OP, that's my preference. I prefer the sound of cranked amp through a mic'd cab through preamps (i.e. RL with IRs) than the in the room cab sound.

 

[chumbucket]

But it would be nice if there was a 'Loudness' button on these SS power amps like on home stereos. Just for low volume playing.

Two Notes has done that on the Torpedo Reload II. Not only does it have depth and presence controls for its built in amp, it also has a "mojo" button which is essentially your loudness control.

 

[tallcoolone]

Two Notes has done that on the Torpedo Reload II. Not only does it have depth and presence controls for its built in amp, it also has a "mojo" button which is essentially your loudness control.

I like TN and the Reload, I had one of the originals. I like the front panel tweakability here--cool for different rooms. I'd love to see them release a Reload III with all of the above with MIDI and onboard fx. They are already into the software side, not sure why they couldn't put together something. Ditching 4c/m is a dream

 

[harddriver]

This is what I did back in the early 90’s…my main modded Superlead into a Juice Extractor thru my fx and then i to two JMP’s that had power amp inputs. Each drove a 412 cab. Great sound loud or quiet.

I have used a 400 watt load for my 68 plexi and ran just about very kind of amp as a power amp. Marshall Superlead into the low bright input, worked great, Musicman HD130 works great, Fender Bandmaster works great, Tubeworks Mosvalve MV962 works ok, was kind of weak on the low end, Peavey Classic 50/50 el84 tube power amp works great and has a depth resonance knobs for more low end at lower volumes,, Matrix GT1000FX, works great low end could be more but it does punch well. The tube amps maybe had a little more compression over the solid state but it's not horrible and you might actually prefer the tube power amps so don't count them out.

If Suhr's reactive load was more wattage I probably would pick one up, John Suhr knows his shit, I still use my Suhr iso line outs but Al uses his 100 watt SL into the Suhr RL with no issues so my concerns may be unwarranted.

I think Kapo Polenton with get good results using the Torpedo as a load and then tapping the line level signal with the Suhr Iso line out to feed the return of the Metro loop on his 50 watt Marshall to drive his cabinets, he can also run an attenuator on the slave amp and cut -4 to -8 DB without squashing the tone and he can always add a depth mod to the slave amp to increase the low end punch when he plays at really low volumes.

Let us know how things go with the slaving setup Kapo, I think you will get good results since you have most of the gear already to try it out.

 

[Greazygeo]

I have used a 400 watt load for my 68 plexi and ran just about very kind of amp as a power amp. Marshall Superlead into the low bright input, worked great, Musicman HD130 works great, Fender Bandmaster works great, Tubeworks Mosvalve MV962 works ok, was kind of weak on the low end, Peavey Classic 50/50 el84 tube power amp works great and has a depth resonance knobs for more low end at lower volumes,, Matrix GT1000FX, works great low end could be more but it does punch well. The tube amps maybe had a little more compression over the solid state but it's not horrible and you might actually prefer the tube power amps so don't count them out.

If Suhr's reactive load was more wattage I probably would pick one up, John Suhr knows his shit, I still use my Suhr iso line outs but Al uses his 100 watt SL into the Suhr RL with no issues so my concerns may be unwarranted.

I think Kapo Polenton with get good results using the Torpedo as a load and then tapping the line level signal with the Suhr Iso line out to feed the return of the Metro loop on his 50 watt Marshall to drive his cabinets, he can also run an attenuator on the slave amp and cut -4 to -8 DB without squashing the tone and he can always add a depth mod to the slave amp to increase the low end punch when he plays at really low volumes.

Let us know how things go with the slaving setup Kapo, I think you will get good results since you have most of the gear already to try it out.

My other guitar player had the same setup but using the Mosvalve. Those were pretty good amps, plenty loud. Before that he ran a Powersoak and Yamaha ss power amp, it was large and sounded good.
I also had a McIntosh MC30 I used. That amp was SUPER quiet and loud. Never did the slave into another amp’s input that I can remember.
The Hotplate on load worked well for me. Ran my MC1 into Hotplate, thru some fx then into the Metal power section. Sometimes just ised the Hotplate on load with a cab in parrallel to knock off a little.
Also having good experience with the PS-2. With the 67 Supertrem, it is pretty cool to use the PS-2 to color and mix with the Marshall core tone.
I would like to grab a Power Soak and maybe a Suhr sometime.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

I have used a 400 watt load for my 68 plexi and ran just about very kind of amp as a power amp. Marshall Superlead into the low bright input, worked great, Musicman HD130 works great, Fender Bandmaster works great, Tubeworks Mosvalve MV962 works ok, was kind of weak on the low end, Peavey Classic 50/50 el84 tube power amp works great and has a depth resonance knobs for more low end at lower volumes,, Matrix GT1000FX, works great low end could be more but it does punch well. The tube amps maybe had a little more compression over the solid state but it's not horrible and you might actually prefer the tube power amps so don't count them out.

If Suhr's reactive load was more wattage I probably would pick one up, John Suhr knows his shit, I still use my Suhr iso line outs but Al uses his 100 watt SL into the Suhr RL with no issues so my concerns may be unwarranted.

I think Kapo Polenton with get good results using the Torpedo as a load and then tapping the line level signal with the Suhr Iso line out to feed the return of the Metro loop on his 50 watt Marshall to drive his cabinets, he can also run an attenuator on the slave amp and cut -4 to -8 DB without squashing the tone and he can always add a depth mod to the slave amp to increase the low end punch when he plays at really low volumes.

Let us know how things go with the slaving setup Kapo, I think you will get good results since you have most of the gear already to try it out.

I'll try it this weekend. I can also run my Randall Lynch Box as the slave and use its resonance knob if need be so I def have some options. It's true that when you get more pieces involved it can be a pain in the ass but I am not moving my setup around. I also agree that Two Notes missed the boat a bit in that they should of had some sort of on board software or cab sim with the Reload II. They should also consider doing a Reload II " Lite" version with just the attenuation and load. I find the new unit on the pricier side when comparing price points of competing units.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Side note, is the regular Suhr reactive load discontinued? I only see the Reactive Load IR available now ( in Canada anyway)

 

[harddriver]

I'll try it this weekend. I can also run my Randall Lynch Box as the slave and use its resonance knob if need be so I def have some options. It's true that when you get more pieces involved it can be a pain in the ass but I am not moving my setup around. I also agree that Two Notes missed the boat a bit in that they should of had some sort of on board software or cab sim with the Reload II. They should also consider doing a Reload II " Lite" version with just the attenuation and load. I find the new unit on the pricier side when comparing price points of competing units.

Remember you are going to have to EQ the slave amp completely different to you main amp. Here is a starting point on how to EQ a Marshall Superlead when using it as a slave power amp. Start with these settings then tweak to your taste. I used similar setting when I used my 72 SL as a power amp and I'm sure I changed them some but it's a good starting point.

Excerpt from the Robin L Metro thread 2009:


The plexis and superleads used for slaving had both volumes set at 9 o'clock, but the inputs were not jumpered.
Ed said that the normal volume (last knob to the right) adds warmth to the sound.
Only the top left input was used.
Using the bright channel for slaving would really offset the overly bassy flubbiness from the dimed plexi, and it would smooth things out.

For the superleads (metal pannel), the preamp knobs were basically set as followed, but with some slight changes depending on the amp:
presence: off
bass: 10
middle: off
treble: off

Does the Metro loop on your amp bypass the tonestack EQ on your 50 watt amp entirely?

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Remember you are going to have to EQ the slave amp completely different to you main amp. Here is a starting point on how to EQ a Marshall Superlead when using it as a slave power amp. Start with these settings then tweak to your taste. I used similar setting when I used my 72 SL as a power amp and I'm sure I changed them some but it's a good starting point.

Excerpt from the Robin L Metro thread 2009:


The plexis and superleads used for slaving had both volumes set at 9 o'clock, but the inputs were not jumpered.
Ed said that the normal volume (last knob to the right) adds warmth to the sound.
Only the top left input was used.
Using the bright channel for slaving would really offset the overly bassy flubbiness from the dimed plexi, and it would smooth things out.

For the superleads (metal pannel), the preamp knobs were basically set as followed, but with some slight changes depending on the amp:
presence: off
bass: 10
middle: off
treble: off

Does the Metro loop on your amp bypass the tonestack EQ on your 50 watt amp entirely?

I'm not sure.. I think so yes but i thought the presence would still work. We will find out soon enough!