The Problem With Modeling Amps

[SavageRiffer]

Man I REALLY like the AxeFX and new AX8, I've also been fairly impressed with the Kemper. In fact, I received my AX8 invitation a couple of weeks ago after a long wait, but dropped it since I just bought a Diezel. I really want one, but much like all technology products, I hate the idea of investing $1400-$2400 into something that will be outdated in a year or two. Especially the Line6 Helix. That thing's expensive and I'll bet they'll come out with a Helix 2 in a year. Buy a tube amp and it doesn't get outdated. It just becomes classic or vintage. I can understand the necessity of a professional, but for average Joes, it seems like a not so good investment. Your thoughts?

 

[Chester Nimitz]

My passion for Thermionic Valve Amplifiers has only gotten stronger since my first Marshall JMP in 1982.

I would like a sNax for FX tho ...

 

[peterc52]

I dont think about investments when buying gear. Not at all.

I like the axe-fx - have had 4 of them incl. ax8 but right now I only have tube amps. (Diezel, Metropoulos, Vox and Gower Marshall)

I enjoy both. But no modeller feels like a tube amp under your fingers.

 

[Rock Bodom]

It's the eternal topic, endless threads debating this and endless more to come.

But my 2 cents is don't think about it as an investment at all similar to what peterc52 said. You should be thinking about what your actual needs are.

I love my tube amps, I can't imagine ever giving them up, but my Axe FX Ultra (so not the latest and greatest tech at all) sits at home and fills a great niche for me for low volume, practice, record type stuff. It took me over 2 years to dial it in and figure out how to really get the best tones out of it, and I have no desire to upgrade to anything else. My ears like it, I already have my dream tube amps as well.

I WILL buy another modeler and/or tube amp if I just simply like it for some reason that I'm not thinking of right now, but I don't think of this stuff as an investment or a regular technology upgrade. I guarantee the tricks I've learned on my Ultra are finally as "real" sounding as I need for my purposes (but not necessarily other people's which is why I get the popularity of some of the more recent stuff).

 

[blackba]

With tube amps and guitars we really have gotten pretty lucky that they do hold their value as well as they do. You don't see that with most technology products, like cell phones, computers, effects processors, keyboards, etc.

I also play keyboards and in that space digital rules. Sure I would love a Hammond B3 organ, but I don't want to haul one around. So I get a keyboard, knowing that it will be obsolete soon. It does bother me a little, but it is the way it is. I know the older keyboards I have and they work for me, so I don't get flustered by not having the latest or greatest.

If you can find a modeling device that works for you, get it and use it.

What has held me back from going the modeling route is the cost. I am so far down the tube amp/pedal rabbit hole, that I would have to sell a bunch of gear to afford a high quality modeler. I like my current amps and pedals too much to do that, so that is what I continue to use. They work for me. If I was starting fresh I would have an Axe-Fx or Kemper and a tube amp or two.

 

[sleewell2]

just because a new model comes out doesn't mean you have to be a mindless lemming and buy it.

if it sounds good now and suits your needs buy it and stop worrying about having the latest and greatest.

 

[AndyK]

I still have my iPhone 5! That said, I've yet to play a modeling amp/sotftware that doesn't FEEL fake compared to an actual tube amp. Sure, they sound OK, and have a ton of tones, FX, tube configurations, etc. But a real Marshall or Fender tube amp will always rule!

 

[Crunchtime]

I still have my iPhone 5! That said, I've yet to play a modeling amp/sotftware that doesn't FEEL fake compared to an actual tube amp. Sure, they sound OK, and have a ton of tones, FX, tube configurations, etc. But a real Marshall or Fender tube amp will always rule!

I just got my first smartphone last week, an iPhone 5s. I'm serious, LOL. And I have Kemper and tubes. Kemper is great for my low volume playing when I don't want to wake up family and it is really fun too. I don't worry about it being outdated. It sounds good and that's all I care about.

 

[Chris O]

Play what you like if it's the right tool for the job. People still play 50 year old amps. "Obsolescence" is just a word.

 

[Steinmetzify]

Man I REALLY like the AxeFX and new AX8, I've also been fairly impressed with the Kemper. In fact, I received my AX8 invitation a couple of weeks ago after a long wait, but dropped it since I just bought a Diezel. I really want one, but much like all technology products, I hate the idea of investing $1400-$2400 into something that will be outdated in a year or two. Especially the Line6 Helix. That thing's expensive and I'll bet they'll come out with a Helix 2 in a year. Buy a tube amp and it doesn't get outdated. It just becomes classic or vintage. I can understand the necessity of a professional, but for average Joes, it seems like a not so good investment. Your thoughts?

For your original post, it's necessity for some people. I live most of the year in an apartment in UT, and seriously can't use tube amps there. There's just no way.....every time I've had one there and turned it up above .5, someone calls the cops. And this is in the middle of the day, let alone the fact that I work weird hours and practice a lot of the time after midnight. There's no way in hell I can use a tube amp for that, as much as I'd like to.

For the bolded part as far as tech being outdated, the AxeII is 6+ years old, and still being updated. Sure it might be EOL, but the way it sounds and feels now it could never get updated again and I'll still use it, because it sounds badass how I choose to use it.

For the investment part of it, I bought an AxeII last year for $1700 used. I could sell it in a few days pretty much anywhere (forums, eBay, Reverb, friends) for $1600. $100 a year in depreciation is pretty good, especially considering it's the same with tube amps. I could buy a used 6505+ tomorrow for $600, keep it for a year and not expect to get much more than $500 back out of it, so it's pretty much the same deal.

Could see it not being someone's first choice...shit, if I had unlimited funds I'd copy Reza's setup and have a bunch of sick tube amps and a Two Notes Studio, but at my income/skill level I can't see the point. The Axe does everything I need at a price point that's easy for me to live with. Sure some guys need more, but those guys are recording/gigging musicians and I'm a hobbyist.

It's DEFINITELY hard to go back and forth between modelers and tube amps daily, but once you realize that they're not the same thing and not supposed to replace each other, it's easier to take.

Right tool for the job.

 

[bobbyd]

modelers and FX - they are extremely powerful, and I have noticed that probably 90% of the guitarists that own them never get deep enough into them to really learn how to program and get the best out of those units. I did a lot of work with Line 6 over the years, and could still get really great tones and FX with the HD500 series modelers.....

a great tube amp will always be a great tube amp, period. and the good ones will indeed hold their value.

right now, for my live gig purposes, I am using a Zoom G5 modeler and multi-FX - they are pretty cheap and easily found for like $200 used......and I ampretty sure I can program sounds in that unit that will rival a $1500 Helix or a $3000 Axe FX style unit.......sure, both of those machines have much greater power and depth than the humble G5 - but the person programming it is the "X" factor - and if you truly spend some time to learn how to use it and program it well, you can certainly get sounds that will rival the much more expensive machines....

 

[squealie]

Amps by and large lose a TON of value almost immediately. Save for a very few Marshalls from the 60s and 70s...almost all of them do. And those very Marshalls were damn near worthless for 30 years. An ultra rare MK2 C+ ... what are there 900 in existence?

The zillion rectos and DSLs and 5150s in the wild are worth about half of the original street price. The Bugeras and Laneys and Blackstars...maybe a third. This argument is kinda silly.

 

[jsp]

Amps by and large lose a TON of value almost immediately. Save for a very few Marshalls from the 60s and 70s...almost all of them do. And those very Marshalls were damn near worthless for 30 years. An ultra rare MK2 C+ ... what are there 900 in existence?

The zillion rectos and DSLs and 5150s in the wild are worth about half of the original street price. The Bugeras and Laneys and Blackstars...maybe a third. This argument is kinda silly.

Pretty much.

Also, you don't buy a laptop or a car because it will retain it's value and/or never be obsolete. You buy it to use it. There's no reason gear, whether it's an amp or a modeler, can't be thought of the same way.

 

[Badronald]

guitarists that own them never get deep enough into them to really learn how to program and get the best out of those units.

This is likely the biggest factor. Guitar players are a lazy bunch.

We run through the presets, don't like them and post on Craigslist. Then go on forums and spout off about how this or that unit sucks.

 

[thiswaythatway]

Try S-Gear or Bias desktop. For $140 bucks they sound almost as good as Fractal's stuff.

 

[JackBootedThug]

i have a hd500 that i'm running into a pa and it's awesome. cool thing is I have about $150 in it. might not sound as good, or really that close to the real thing, but it has some really killer sounds in it.

 

[lessthan12]

Try S-Gear or Bias desktop. For $140 bucks they sound almost as good as Fractal's stuff.

Have bias, have an Axe FX II, had a helix and a Kemper. Bias and s gear aren't even close but to each their own

 

[PBGas]

The one thing about the Kemper that is always nice is that ability to profile the amps you own. Kind of like archiving your collection in a digital format.

Still...I've had 3 of the units and won't be going back down that road anytime soon. I'm more interested in the confirmation that Fractal has an Axe plugin in the works. That could be interesting. As an aside, at least it is a product that they could keep in stock and actually provide enough of to meet the demand.

 

[Steinmetzify]

Try S-Gear or Bias desktop. For $140 bucks they sound almost as good as Fractal's stuff.

Have bias, have an Axe FX II, had a helix and a Kemper. Bias and s gear aren't even close but to each their own

Agreed. S-Gear is one of the best to my ears, and I even really like the free stuff like LePou and the TSE, but to my ears it's not even close to my Axe or my buddy's Helix.

I used Bias for over a year and got some good tones from it, but it took a ton of work and EQ. No comparison.

Although the one I really do like is ReValver 4....that was the first VST that I loaded up and thought "this is really good", not in a 'this is ok for what it is' sense, but that thing was almost enough to make me dump the Axe and buy a cheap interface and just use that.

Almost.

 

[Scumback Speakers]

I had a friend (ex-friend now) that wanted to buy an Ibanez guitar from Guitar Center 17 years ago. He's talking to the salesman about a $199 guitar, and asking the salesman if it's a good investment.



Sometimes you just have to decide if you want something based on it's own current merits or if you're in it to resell later for a profit.