There it is...(modelling/profiling content)

[Heritage Softail]

I still think it is a modern marvel. Quite awesome and I could see a great use for one.

 

[mentoneman]

i spoke to a chemist on a flight once who was responsible for molecularly tagging every day household food items like coca cola, hershey's chocolate, etc, through the use of nanotechnology, writing a unique yet benign molecular id strand into the product, in order to protect the proprietary formulas from product piracy and illegal imitators who are unable to reproduce those molecular signatures.

Oh man, I KNEW I tasted something different in Coke! I'm on ebay now looking for NOS.

there was an episode of the tv show "fringe" that devled into some of this concept, where a certain poison compound had a deliberate seahorse shaped molecule signature, from which the scientists were able to deduce whodunnit.

the guy i talked to became extremely guarded about the info he was willing to divulge, indicating that the intensity of espionage and white collar crime in this field was mind-boggling; like colleagues killed and chemist "taggers" identities constantly changing and being protected when it got in to the pharmaceutical industries and billions of dollars at stake for pirating seemingly mundane things like viagra and high cholesterol meds and tylenol. just crazy.

 

[lester]

Cliff Chase just bought a Dumble in order to get it coded to the Axe-FX II.

Does a modeler/profiler sound like an amb & cab in the room? There have been discussions that - no - a modeler profiler sounds like a mic'd cab being driven by a head; it doesn't have that 3D room filling effect that the actual amp/cab do in the room.

Mo

Soon though -

.

 

[Capulin Overdrive]

Article written by a dude who used to build Exploxer shaped guitars for Hamer!


Did Hamer pay Gibson royalties?

 

[snowdog]

Who you gonna call ?

 

[Heritage Softail]

Article written by a dude who used to build Exploxer shaped guitars for Hamer!


Did Hamer pay Gibson royalties?

How sweet an irony!

Like Brett Michaels bitching about Kotzen fucking his boys old lady, while he was speed banging anything available.

 

[glpg80]

Profile all you want. The ones bitching about it can barely play their own material these days. It is cheaper to go see a cover band than the real deal.

I see nothing wrong with it personally. They are close, and close enough for most, but not exact and never will be. Also the human factor is involved as i mentioned; just because you can mimic the sound does not mean you will capture what makes the original, an original.

Notice it is not the amplifier owners or manufacturers bitching to amplifier simulation/emulation software giants, or profilers for that matter either. It is the big-wig artists who are to used to their old times and cheap enough to squeeze a penny until it shits a dollar.

I say people will grow more accustomed to them as time progresses. I also see them as today's hot topic but in the long run i doubt they will hold any water. Just another toy that will be surpassed by technology as time progresses. Onward and upward as they always say.

 

[daver101]

Everyone with a Marshall should pay a royalty to Fender, because after all, Marshall was ripping off a Bassman circuit........

 

[Anonymous]

I can see both sides of the ethical argument. I admit it kind of sucks that some will buy an amp copy it and sell. I am not going to argue my position because it is just my opinion. Someone like Steve who spends a ton of time in development and QA processes and builds the Cherry Bomb. If someone posts a killer profile or patch it kills potential buyers who think to themselves "It may not be the real thing but it is good enough for me".

On the other hand, there are a ton of killer vintage and out of production amps that some will never get play let alone own (some who would be willing to purchase). The fact that the lucky few profile and share is fantastic.

I am not going to vilify either camp.

It's an interesting discussion, and since you brought me up, I'm in!

Here's my thinking on this. I have the Kemper because I can't buy the room full of amps that I can get with the thing for recording. While others may think differently, for playing in my room at normal volume or loud jamming, I'd rather use an amp/cab, and for me, that amp is the Cherry Bomb, or one of the few other amps I liked enough to buy. At this point, the Kemper doesn't replace that for me. It lets me have some sounds I wouldn't use enough to buy the actual amp. The way I figure it, there will be enough people who will either not buy into the Kemper, or will feel so compelled by hearing/seeing my amp that they will want to buy it. They'll either be guys who only do tubes, or guys (like me) who own a Kemper, but find my amp one of the few they would actually like to own. For the guys who download a killer profile of my amp and don't want the real thing, I think they wouldn't have bought my amp anyway. Or who knows, maybe they hear the killer patch and decide this is one of the few amps they really want to own. Let's face it, there is more to owning a high priced, low production boutique tube amp like mine than the experience of playing a profile through the Kemper - there is craftsmanship, design elements, features, etc. that some people enjoy and will be attracted to. There is something about owning a tube amp that will always be important to certain guitar players, and a very small subset of those guys will appreciate what I've done enough to buy one of mine. There is a very small market for what I've done (design MY dream amp in a repeatable PCB design and build it like a tank with the highest quality parts and unique look and features) and maybe I lose a few guys who would have bought, but maybe I gain some with some nice profiles.

My plan is to use this as a marketing opportunity of sorts, because eventually someone will make profiles of my amp that I can't control. I'm going to profile a variety of setting of my amp and get the recorded tone to sound as much like the recordings I'm getting of the amp mic'd through a cab. I'll even do something completely produced with outboard effects, etc. Probably a stereo mix of a W/D/W profile with a mix of three mics on my setup with micropitchshift and delay... Who knows how many I'll do? And then I'll put 'em up on my website for a nominal fee. Hey maybe I'll get some buyers of the actual amp and maybe I'll lose some, but truth be told, plenty of people will buy other amps anyway and none of us amp guys can stop the charge of technology as far as profiling/modeling. All I can do is play along, make sure I understand it and see how I can use it to make my business a success.

Steve

 

[Tone Monster]

It won't hold up. Here's why. There are too many variables that make up a tone. Some tones have more variables than others. You have the player, his fingers, his picks, his strings, his guitar, his cable, his amp, his tubes in said amp, his speaker cable, his cab, his cab's wiring, his cab's speakers, etc...

With the Kemper you add the microphone used to capture the tone and its placement.

The amp itself is just an ingredient in the recipe of the tone.

All that being said, if I was an amp manufacturer, I'd be pissed as there is NO DOUBT these profilers hurt their bottom line. I just don't know what I could legally do about it...

 

[steve_k]

Sounds, tone nor amp circuits are "patentable". So, the author of the article can question and wonder all day long.

 

[Ventura]

I say people will grow more accustomed to them as time progresses. I also see them as today's hot topic but in the long run i doubt they will hold any water. Just another toy that will be surpassed by technology as time progresses. Onward and upward as they always say.

Word.

 

[glassjaw7]

Everything's already been said on both sides of the argument. Just want to say...it's funny how when the original POD came out, it was arguably the first attempt at what most guitarists and engineers dream of; an accurate and easy to use 'copy' of a handful of some of the greatest amps ever built, all in one little unit. Well, it wasn't accurate at all, as we all know, but it was the start of a constantly improving technology. Fast forward a little more than a decade and the tech is getting so good that it's sometimes hard to tell the real thing from the clone, and now people are complaining.

I do understand both sides of it but overall, I couldn't be happier to be a guitarist right now. Amazing tools are available to us. It could also be argued that some people will want to buy the real amp after playing a model or profile of it. It's like a 'virtual' way of amp shopping.

 

[Gainfreak]

Sounds, tone nor amp circuits are "patentable". So, the author of the article can question and wonder all day long.

This,

And while we are at it. The whole concept of tube technology was started from a BOOK and the schems and information on how to use the technology was given out FREELY for people to use.
Leo Fender used circuits based on this book and Marshall took from that and so on and so forth.


In order for any of this to make sense then there would have had to been patents allowed for all this stuff back in the 30's, but since the info was given out and anyone could obtain it, it's to freaking late.

I get what the person was trying to say in the article but it's a freaking moot point.

As far as it having an impact on sales for some manufactures, I don't think so. When it comes to gear, History has shown me time and time again that people will allows want something new or be curious about stuff. When they get tired of the artificial amp they might want to try the real thing and vice versa it might even generate sales in some cases.

 

[steve_k]

Sounds, tone nor amp circuits are "patentable". So, the author of the article can question and wonder all day long.

This,

And while we are at it. The whole concept of tube technology was started from a BOOK and the schems and information on how to use the technology was given out FREELY for people to use.
Leo Fender used circuits based on this book and Marshall took from that and so on and so forth.


In order for any of this to make sense then there would have had to been patents allowed for all this stuff back in the 30's, but since the info was given out and anyone could obtain it, it's to freaking late.

I get what the person was trying to say in the article but it's a freaking moot point.

As far as it having an impact on sales for some manufactures, I don't think so. When it comes to gear, History has shown me time and time again that people will allows want something new or be curious about stuff. When they get tired of the artificial amp they might want to try the real thing and vice versa it might even generate sales in some cases.

We would all be playing a Fender Bassman if it were patentable....

 

[stratotone]

The first fender amps were built off western electric circuits - basically it was like buying a sack of flour and there being recipes on the flour packaging - same thing with tubes. Buy our tubes, build our schematics, use more tubes, etc. If Marshall can't go after people who build plexi clones and Fender can't go after people who build Fender clones, I don't see how they could go after Kemper or Fractal.

 

[supersonic]

Regardless of where an amps design originates, I believe that if an amp is profiled the original builder deserves a cut. Especially when the profile is sold and is openly described as coming for a particular amp. This should be law, it is near impossable to police, but so is movie and CD pirating.

 

[Heritage Softail]

Regardless of where an amps design originates, I believe that if an amp is profiled the original builder deserves a cut. Especially when the profile is sold and is openly described as coming for a particular amp. This should be law, it is near impossable to police, but so is movie and CD pirating.

That seems reasonable. The Kemper is not really an amp. It is a computer in an amp looking box designed to copy amps.

It is a copy machine. So work with the actual builders and create great profiles. I would pay $100 for a Diezel made set of profiles, say 20, of a VH4.

 

[guitarmike]

The only problem I see with modelers in general is that their take on a given tone is "close enough." As the high end modeler prices drop my fear is that a whole generation of guitar players will get used to hearing "close enough" and start thinking that is the way a particular amp sounds and never seek the real one out. Why would you? If you have 99% accuracy of your top amps in a lunch box for $500 or so (I know we are not there yet), the need to play a real amp is all but eliminated. The end result over time will be the end of tube amps because the guys like me that only play through tubes will be too far and few between to support manufacturing tubes. There is nothing we can do about it and I am not saying we should, so much of today's generation is premised on stuff that is not real, this is just one more thing to add to the list. If you are over 40 you do not realize how much of a 12-25yr old's life is around virtual this and that, computer enhanced, and digitally remastered.
The digital world makes copying so easy, it all but snuffs out originality.

 

[moltenmetalburn]

It's not the circuits being copied they are not analog facsimile.