Three gain stages vs 4 or more for high gain

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SpiderWars

SpiderWars

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It seems that I prefer less stages. There is something about the clarity and the voice not being so focused...or something.

For example I prefer a good Jose circuit (3 stages plus cathode follower) with no diode clipping over something like an XTC or a SLO.

Is it just because for each added stage you have to remove lows (to avoid blocking/farty fuzz tone) and highs (to avoid decapitating people) and all you're left with is saturated, focused mids? Which you can add lows/highs back in, but it's not the same.

I've also noticed on some amps that it will sound OK throughout much of the range but as soon as you play single notes on the 4th/5th strings near the 10th fret it turns into a boxy midrangey tone, almost cocked wah. These are often ones with 4+ stages.
 
I am curious on this one too.

I also think that four gain stages more fitting on some amps with different output sections (obviously to a degree not directly related) but like I find that a 6L6 output has a different feel with three or four gain stages than an El34. I am not saying one is 'better' but I feel like they handle it differently. But again obviously pre and power amps are not directly nor indirectly related. Honestly I don't know enough on the topic to add more.
 
SpiderWars":3mccw4h3 said:
It seems that I prefer less stages. There is something about the clarity and the voice not being so focused...or something.

For example I prefer a good Jose circuit (3 stages plus cathode follower) with no diode clipping over something like an XTC or a SLO.

Is it just because for each added stage you have to remove lows (to avoid blocking/farty fuzz tone) and highs (to avoid decapitating people) and all you're left with is saturated, focused mids? Which you can add lows/highs back in, but it's not the same.

I've also noticed on some amps that it will sound OK throughout much of the range but as soon as you play single notes on the 4th/5th strings near the 10th fret it turns into a boxy midrangey tone, almost cocked wah. These are often ones with 4+ stages.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I hear ya.
3 stages + a cathode follower is plenty of gain to get the goods.
It seems like adding more gain stages at that point runs the risk of too much compression and lack of focus. But 4 gain stages + CF can sound good if the builder has his shit together. It's all about controlling what happens BETWEEN the stages, and how you set up the power supply string.
Some builders do it better than others.
For example, the lead channel on a Wizard MCII is 3 gain stages, some diode clipping, then 2 more gain stages (plate fed tone stack, no CF ) , and Wizards have no problem maintaining the focus and punch.
Other end of the spectrum are the EVH amps for example. Not saying they sound bad, but, well...you know what I mean :D
The Stealth amps are like WTF?
That much over the top gain and compression can be kinda cool I guess, but it's not every ones cup of tea, that's for sure.....
The SLO is right in the grey area. The power supply design saves that amp, and is where the EVH stuff goes off the rails, given that they are a very similar layout otherwise.
YMMV
 
@fusedbrain

Do you have an opinion on the number of stages/configuration combined with a different power tube section?
 
The key with added gain stages is to refrain from the over use of peaking circuits between The gain stages.
 
Depends. You're comparing an SLO to a Jose Marshall. Very different voicings, regardless of the number of gain stages.

If we compare a 3-stage Jose JCM800 (with or without diodes) to a 4-stage JCM800 then it's a better comparison. And then... are we talking about 4 stages using a plate-fed stack or 4 stages with a cathode follower and we've added an additional tube?

I do like the added saturation of 4 stages and plate-fed stack. I have a Fortin Cali and I like how it sounds with the 4 stages compared to how it sounds with 3 stages + diodes. But then I plug into the Jose 800 I built with 3 stages + diodes and it sounds better than the Fortin with diodes. But the Fortin with 4 stages and no clippers sounds great too.

Gotta get both! lol
 
FourT6and2":1194le5s said:
Depends. You're comparing an SLO to a Jose Marshall. Very different voicings, regardless of the number of gain stages.

If we compare a 3-stage Jose JCM800 (with or without diodes) to a 4-stage JCM800 then it's a better comparison. And then... are we talking about 4 stages using a plate-fed stack or 4 stages with a cathode follower and we've added an additional tube?

I do like the added saturation of 4 stages and plate-fed stack. I have a Fortin Cali and I like how it sounds with the 4 stages compared to how it sounds with 3 stages + diodes. But then I plug into the Jose 800 I built with 3 stages + diodes and it sounds better than the Fortin with diodes. But the Fortin with 4 stages and no clippers sounds great too.

Gotta get both! lol
Click to expand...
Good point, I'm still experimenting with a Langner-ish 4+CF and that is a better comparison to a Jose 3+CF. I can't decide which I like better between those two either.

Maybe it's the cold clipper. As good as boosted 2203/2204s are I've always prefered boosted-cranked-plexi tone.
 
Three gain stages always seems to have the clarity I look for
 
I like either. There are plenty of ways to add in bottom end from the power amp. I can make my 20 watt JCA20 throw more controlled bottom end than a 5150.
 
This is a great thread :yes:


Question for the smart people. I'm not good at reading schematics.

How about a Splawn Quick Rod?

Mine has 4 preamp tubes. The 4th is a PI. At some point prior to 2008 Scott added a 4th preamp tube to improve the Clean channel. It was not to increase gain as far as I know. Word on the street is that the older ones are more mean/aggressive. Either way, they do not have a cathode follower I'm told. They do not have diodes/clippers. The clean channel has a separate EQ/gain/volume controls. The clean channel is much less loud than OD (to me). There is a bit of channel bleed.

It also has a Gear knob that goes from 'plexi', 'jcm800', 'modded jcm800' and then an OD1/OD2 option on footswitch which is even more + a solo boost. So yeah, it can get pretty crazy but I'd call it more raw and open vs compressed or saturated.

Based on this info in Manual is this a 4 Gain Stage/plate fed tone stack?

qfPHK6z.jpg


What would this be comparable too?



Also, my other amp is a Mesa Rectoverb 50w head. How are those set up?
 
It's a bit of it's own thing afaik. Like you said its 4 stages but no cathode follower. The tone stack is at the end of the preamp like a Marshall though. Contrast with a 4-stage Mesa Mark which has the tonestack early in the pre, first 2 stages are very blackface Fender inspired. Very different.

Others here know more about that lineage. I had a QR and it's the only Splawn I've ever played but my right wrist and that amp were just not a good match. I fought it.
 
311splawndude":3mp3wal8 said:
This is a great thread :yes:


Question for the smart people. I'm not good at reading schematics.

How about a Splawn Quick Rod?

Mine has 4 preamp tubes. The 4th is a PI. At some point prior to 2008 Scott added a 4th preamp tube to improve the Clean channel. It was not to increase gain as far as I know. Word on the street is that the older ones are more mean/aggressive. Either way, they do not have a cathode follower I'm told. They do not have diodes/clippers. The clean channel has a separate EQ/gain/volume controls. The clean channel is much less loud than OD (to me). There is a bit of channel bleed.

It also has a Gear knob that goes from 'plexi', 'jcm800', 'modded jcm800' and then an OD1/OD2 option on footswitch which is even more + a solo boost. So yeah, it can get pretty crazy but I'd call it more raw and open vs compressed or saturated.

Based on this info in Manual is this a 4 Gain Stage/plate fed tone stack?

qfPHK6z.jpg


What would this be comparable too?



Also, my other amp is a Mesa Rectoverb 50w head. How are those set up?
Click to expand...

Interesting.

If I am reading correctly, the Rivera K-Tre has four stages. Could someone explain exactly how those work?
 
I like Bruce Egnater’s Marshall mod, adds a tube to a stock Marshall 2203/2204, uses half of the triode though, not both halves. Just sounds like running a good boost into a stock Marshall, but bigger.
 
So here is the Recto preamp. Don't know how the power section and tone stack fit in but it appears this is a pretty standard set up for all Rectos. I know the tone controls affect the gain structure significantly but don't know how it matches up with the Marks (or other amps).


gHGLzvj.jpg
 
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