Tube power section bad, me emulate it

[ZEN Amps]

I know the marketing folks have to give us something to get excited about, but it's getting increasingly weird out there. Interested to know if anyone has opinions or comments on these game-changers.

Synergy - we've incorporated an actual “0 watt power amp”, phase inverter and small transformer into the module design. This innovative approach faithfully captures the harmonic complexity and dynamic response of a cranked Marshall poweramp, delivering the rich tone and feel of a full-sized amp.

So if you're going direct from module to DAW, or through a clean power amp, you now have a mock phase inverter (unsure if they've hijacked a 12ax7, or it's an emulation), a mini tranny and a solid state amplifier with zero amplification(?) - all to supposedly emulate an actual PI, a pair of EL34's and big iron?

Seems like a real stretch to anyone actually thinking beyond the buzz words. Also it seems this additional circuitry is not bypassable, which would make running it into a good power amp pretty fruity.


Fryette - the new UL has a 1 watt power amp and small reactive load into a small transformer. So when you go direct you don't have to use the power section.

Man a significant reason for using tube amps is to harness the tone, character and feel that a good power section provides. Sure you'll extend your tube life by not actually using them, but what a price to pay.


While we're here, Friedman - using DSP, we've made a Class D power amp sound and feel exactly like a BE's. It's nothing like other Class D designs - sag, feel, everything is there.

I'm sure their new reamp box is cool, but they are big claims (some by Dave, some by the DSP guy).

In all three cases, it seems a critical tone element - the humble power section - is being written off as something that can be easily emulated. I've not tried any of the above devices, maybe they've all somehow cracked the code..but call me skeptical for now.

Is the player that values low volumes and a light weight solution above other factors driving the development of these products? Seems very un-rock n' roll, but maybe it's just the sign of the times.

Thoughts?

 

[S̷͖͑m̵͎͂á̵̺s̸͚̈́h̴̬̑]

I know the marketing folks have to give us something to get excited about, but it's getting increasingly weird out there. Interested to know if anyone has opinions or comments on these game-changers.

game-changers=gimmicks

Synergy - we've incorporated an actual “0 watt power amp”, phase inverter and small transformer into the module design. This innovative approach faithfully captures the harmonic complexity and dynamic response of a cranked Marshall poweramp, delivering the rich tone and feel of a full-sized amp.

I have played synergy and thought it was amazing. However, with the power amp that we were using, it got buried by the real amp next to it. I will get a chance soon to play some modules through the 2/90/2 and I will report back.

So if you're going direct from module to DAW, or through a clean power amp, you now have a mock phase inverter (unsure if they've hijacked a 12ax7, or it's an emulation), a mini tranny and a solid state amplifier with zero amplification(?) - all to supposedly emulate an actual PI, a pair of EL34's and big iron?

I don't know what the fuck you just said....But you touched a brother's heart.

Seems like a real stretch to anyone actually thinking beyond the buzz words. Also it seems this additional circuitry is not bypassable, which would make running it into a good power amp pretty fruity.

It would also be kind of a shame to buy an amp for the price of the new "Ultra lead" to try to kill the goofy digital side. If you are talking about the module, I don't know a lot about running it into different "clean" power amps, but I understand that many amp makers get a lot of the special sauce out of matching a preamp circuit with a power section, hence why the SLO and Dual rec sound so completely different.

I think the trick with synergy may be running it through the fryette shit since he has designed a good few of them.

Fryette - the new UL has a 1 watt power amp and small reactive load into a small transformer. So when you go direct you don't have to use the power section.

Man a significant reason for using tube amps is to harness the tone, character and feel that a good power section provides. Sure you'll extend your tube life by not actually using them, but what a price to pay.


While we're here, Friedman - using DSP, we've made a Class D power amp sound and feel exactly like a BE's. It's nothing like other Class D designs - sag, feel, everything is there.

I'm sure their new reamp box is cool, but they are big claims (some by Dave, some by the DSP guy).

In all three cases, it seems a critical tone element - the humble power section - is being written off as something that can be easily emulated. I've not tried any of the above devices, maybe they've all somehow cracked the code..but call me skeptical for now.

The best ever recording situation I had besides a close mic was on a wizard I had. It had a line out. That was cool, because I could play my amp at VOLUME like a real goddamned guitarist to get the tone I wanted, and feel the music, but the lineout was running straight into my interface into a two notes IR that damn near sounded spot on to my actual micd cab....So It was fun as hell.

Is the player that values low volumes and a light weight solution above other factors driving the development of these products? Seems very un-rock n' roll, but maybe it's just the sign of the times.

Thoughts?

It is a goddamned shame everytime I see people talking about how good a tube amp sounds at talking volume. I just don't know why that would be a thing.

 

[glpg80]

The power amp is where everything comes together. Everyone concentrates on preamp modifications and the preamp modules but the power amp design is what actually produces the sound output in a tube amp and controls a significant impact to the feel, sound, and character.

I would be worried they’re mucking in power amp emulation moreso than the all analog preamp. The power amp design will make or break how something feels under the fingers or responds.

I’m skeptical about a lot of claims aimed at bedroom playing sounding like you’re cranked but you’re not. No gain is just a fancy way of saying unity buffer or a unity gain long tail pair.

I actually have my own phase inverter design that’s more optimal than what is commonly used and it’s actually intended to provide louder volume and hit the power tubes harder. I hate how everything is trying to copy the real deal and then pales in comparison to said real deal.

 

[DanTravis62]

Let's just say i'm really skeptical. Amp makers talk a huge game about this and it's nearly always bullshit. Sometimes I'm convinced most amp makers don't even play guitar, and are just bullshitting us with some of this stuff - trying to hit a moving target, blind, as it were.

The only device i've ever used that's really, truly emulated the sound of a cranked power amp is using the "self-attenuation" feature on a Powerstation, and that basically is a cranked tube power amp.

 

[S̷͖͑m̵͎͂á̵̺s̸͚̈́h̴̬̑]

Let's just say i'm really skeptical. Amp makers talk a huge game about this and it's nearly always bullshit. Sometimes I'm convinced most amp makers don't even play guitar, and are just bullshitting us with some of this stuff - trying to hit a moving target, blind, as it were.

The only device i've ever used that's really, truly emulated the sound of a cranked power amp is using the "self-attenuation" feature on a Powerstation, and that basically is a cranked tube power amp.

I am the sick fuck that bought the powerstation to run my 50 watt into a 100 watt power amp to get more headroom

 

[Eazy-ESP]

Exactly why I am so sceptical on the new Fryette UL and the supposed “sag” mimicking on the switch mode power supply.

 

[mnemonic]

I guess we haven’t seen much digital inclusion in amps until recently (not counting cheap stuff with built in FX). Maybe the modeller sales are starting to hurt the bottom line.

I feel it may be a strategic mistake to introduce digital stuff to your tube amp buyers, if they end up agreeing your modeling power amp is as good as the real thing they may well end up replacing your tube preamp with fractal/neural/tonex/nam. Tubes will never be able to compete with digital on weight and versatility, better to focus on what they can do better in my opinion.

Fryette - the new UL has a 1 watt power amp and small reactive load into a small transformer. So when you go direct you don't have to use the power section.

I have a GP/DI and it has a 1 watt power amp with an itty bitty output transformer and built in reactive load. The thing about little power amps is they sound little. No real way around that. When I run the GPDI into my 2/50/2 it sounds huge and great but using just that 1 watt power amp for recording or going direct would be a huge compromise (unless you’re one of the tgp guys going for the tiny amp sound, but they ain’t buying UL’s).

When he mentioned that I became very skeptical of every other claim he made.

A lot of the UL-II seems like features in search of problems to solve- who is buying a $4k amp to record but doesn’t have a reactive load, doesn’t have an IR loader, doesn’t have an interface, and goes to a studio where they can’t mic up a 4x12?

 

[DanTravis62]

A lot of the UL-II seems like features in search of problems to solve- who is buying a $4k amp to record but doesn’t have a reactive load, doesn’t have an IR loader, doesn’t have an interface, and goes to a studio where they can’t mic up a 4x12?

Yep, exactly.

Hammer in search of a nail

 

[S̷͖͑m̵͎͂á̵̺s̸͚̈́h̴̬̑]

better to focus on what they can do better in my opinion.

THIS^ 100%

Anything other than making a tube amp that sounds and feels great is a deviation from what makes an amp special in the first place.

It is the same problem I have with people that make youtube videos. Why dumb your content down to the mean, instead of being above such drivel?

The whole purpose of boutique in my opinion is to Stand on your principles and make something that is great for those looking for something great. If you try to make it more accessible for everyone and therefore more profitable, you lose sight of what you were trying to do originally. It is why no good movies are made today. And why most modern motorcycles have no fucking soul.

 

[ZEN Amps]

The power amp is where everything comes together. Everyone concentrates on preamp modifications and the preamp modules but the power amp design is what actually produces the sound output in a tube amp and controls a significant impact to the feel, sound, and character.

Agreed. This was why I moved away from the MTS modular stuff. They Synergy preamps do sound good, but a dozen Oates and one Hall (early morning, forgive me) is ultimately unsatisfying.

Seems to me liked we're trying to be convinced the preamp is all that really matters, and that pesky archaic power section isn't all the critical. This contradicts every experience I've ever had with a tube amp or preamp system in my life - maybe others feel differently?

I could play my amp at VOLUME like a real goddamned guitarist to get the tone I wanted

PLEASE start a youtube channel where you yell at the camera insulting anyone who owns a sub-50W amp, uses the phrase grab n' go, or utters the term pedal platform.

I am the sick fuck

No need to qualify this statement.

 

[S̷͖͑m̵͎͂á̵̺s̸͚̈́h̴̬̑]

Agreed. This was why I moved away from the MTS modular stuff. They Synergy preamps do sound good, but a dozen Oates and one Hall (early morning, forgive me) is ultimately unsatisfying.

Seems to me liked we're trying to be convinced the preamp is all that really matters, and that pesky archaic power section isn't all the critical. This contradicts every experience I've ever had with a tube amp or preamp system in my life - maybe others feel differently?



PLEASE start a youtube channel where you yell at the camera insulting anyone who owns a sub-50W amp, uses the phrase grab n' go, or utters the term pedal platform.

Your youtube channel is perfect. It gives a lot of perspective on how an individual may be using an amp. No one could do a better review of amps than what you are doing.

My youtube channel is a joke and only for my own entertainment. If it entertains another person, then that is a win. But I am not trying to do a thing with it, and I don't edit, it is all one takes.

 

[DanTravis62]

Agreed. This was why I moved away from the MTS modular stuff. They Synergy preamps do sound good, but a dozen Oates and one Hall (early morning, forgive me) is ultimately unsatisfying.

Seems to me liked we're trying to be convinced the preamp is all that really matters, and that pesky archaic power section isn't all the critical. This contradicts every experience I've ever had with a tube amp or preamp system in my life - maybe others feel differently?

I feel similarly. Although I'm probably in the minority, I also am starting to believe most amp builders are completely fucking retarded and just lucked into having a successful brand in the gear space, so maybe take my agreement with a grain of salt.

I am quite serious though, with the "I don't think these guys even play guitar" thing. Or they are like "beginner level" guitarists who don't really understand the nuances of this stuff.

The power section (especially how it reacts to the preamp, and even more especially under stage volume) is an absolutely critical ingredient. There's a reason "wall of sound" and every IR loader on earth tries to model different "power sections" with basic EQ and bullshit - they are trying to dumb down the reactive role that the power amp plays into a simple EQ curve (like an IR) to simulate all the magic that happens.

I'm also less convinced that it's the actual power tube type that creates these reactive experiences. I think it's mostly how they are implemented.

 

[S̷͖͑m̵͎͂á̵̺s̸͚̈́h̴̬̑]

If I remember correctly, when you were starting your channel, you asked a few of us for criticism for what you were doing. I am pretty sure I didn't have anything but positive things to say since you succinctly nailed what you were going for. I have found the channel incredibly useful.

EDIT: I found our correspondence. Here is my response for your beta testing:

Well, buddy. I wasn't going to be hyper critical. But then I couldn't find anything glaringly wrong, so I was hypercritical, and couldn't find anything wrong. You fucking nailed it. I am sure it took you a long time with editing and all that.
You are giving a lot of information there, especially with the different speakers. That was the best part.
Well done.

 

[S̷͖͑m̵͎͂á̵̺s̸͚̈́h̴̬̑]

I feel similarly. Although I'm probably in the minority, I also am starting to believe most amp builders are completely fucking retarded and just lucked into having a successful brand in the gear space, so maybe take my agreement with a grain of salt.

I am quite serious though, with the "I don't think these guys even play guitar" thing. Or they are like "beginner level" guitarists who don't really understand the nuances of this stuff.

The power section (especially how it reacts to the preamp, and even more especially under stage volume) is an absolutely critical ingredient. There's a reason "wall of sound" and every IR loader on earth tries to model different "power sections" with basic EQ and bullshit - they are trying to dumb down the reactive role that the power amp plays into a simple EQ curve (like an IR) to simulate all the magic that happens.

I'm also less convinced that it's the actual power tube type that creates these reactive experiences. I think it's mostly how they are implemented.

You know. I can get some pretty great tones out of my modelling for silent playing. But it isn't in the slightest bit rewarding to play on it. I love it for composing my riffs and getting them "down" so that I can plug into a real amp at volume and then actually "see" how the fuck they really sound.

Sometimes the shit I write doesn't fucking work at volume, it is a completely different ballgame.

 

[DanTravis62]

You know. I can get some pretty great tones out of my modelling for silent playing. But it isn't in the slightest bit rewarding to play on it. I love it for composing my riffs and getting them "down" so that I can plug into a real amp at volume and then actually "see" how the fuck they really sound.

Sometimes the shit I write doesn't fucking work at volume, it is a completely different ballgame.

Yeah my kemper is great for sketching out ideas or doing demos - if I had the right profile for the project, I would use it on a real record, too.

But the proof is in the pudding. and ever professional recording i've done in the past few years has been with an actual amp.

I don't think modelers are bad sounding or terrible by any means, but they are missing something fundamental and that's undeniable. If anyone doubts it, listen to EVH or Yngwie's tone in the 80s, and then listen to any modern shredder with a modeler or software tone, and tell me which is more inspiring to hear? Which one do you think expresses the artist's vision better?

 

[Leo Diezel]

Synergy 0 watt is basically the exact phase inverter of the amp the module (or pedals in case of Toneking) is from, minus the power tubes, so a full 12ax7 most of the times.
That gives the real amp compression and drive so you can crank it at low volume. Very similar to a post phase inverter MV.
Circuit are really easy to check if you have a module, no buzzword or marketing or black glue to hide anything.

The Synergy new stuff it's patent pending and it's completely different as it replace the poweramp as a whole, so you need to move air and real guitar cabs.

It drives the speaker just like a tube amp would, so it's going to sound and feel the same because of phisics. (current and voltage so back EMF etc..)

It's going to be in two products:
Wampler Pedalhead is going to be a minuature yet powerful (comparable to two 50W tube amps at any impedance) stereo poweramp with multiple poweramp "modes" where modes are real tube heads power sections or rack poweramps, while the Friedman is going to be more powerful (75W to 100W comparable tube power) but different poweramp mode.

 

[S̷͖͑m̵͎͂á̵̺s̸͚̈́h̴̬̑]

It's going to be in two products:
Wampler Pedalhead is going to be a minuature yet powerful (comparable to two 50W tube amps at any impedance) stereo poweramp with multiple poweramp "modes" where modes are real tube heads power sections or rack poweramps, while the Friedman is going to be more powerful (75W to 100W comparable tube power) but different poweramp mode.

That sounds interesting. Was this due to some deficiency found with the preamp modules not being matched to corresponding power amps?

 

[Leo Diezel]

That sounds interesting. Was this due to some deficiency found with the preamp modules not being matched to corresponding power amps?

In a small part, but mostly because there was no alternative to tubes for that sound and feeling.

Offering something that sound and feel just as good but also weight nothing and require no maintenance is going to appeal a way bigger audience, not only Synergy users.

We set up an AB test at NAMM using a Smallbox preamp and a Fender preamp either into Smallbox poweramp or Fender poweramp or going into the Wampler Pedalhead poweramp, than into Fender own combo cabinet or a Synergy 2*12.
No one (regular customers, dealer, other amp manufacturer, famous players) could reliably identify which was which.
There's a nice Andertson video out there.

 

[glpg80]

Synergy 0 watt is basically the exact phase inverter of the amp the module (or pedals in case of Toneking) is from, minus the power tubes, so a full 12ax7 most of the times.
That gives the real amp compression and drive so you can crank it at low volume. Very similar to a post phase inverter MV.
Circuit are really easy to check if you have a module, no buzzword or marketing or black glue to hide anything.

The Synergy new stuff it's patent pending and it's completely different as it replace the poweramp as a whole, so you need to move air and real guitar cabs.

It drives the speaker just like a tube amp would, so it's going to sound and feel the same because of phisics. (current and voltage so back EMF etc..)

It's going to be in two products:
Wampler Pedalhead is going to be a minuature yet powerful (comparable to two 50W tube amps at any impedance) stereo poweramp with multiple poweramp "modes" where modes are real tube heads power sections or rack poweramps, while the Friedman is going to be more powerful (75W to 100W comparable tube power) but different poweramp mode.

I’m skeptical whatever is being designed on will move air and sound as big as tubes do just like a real tube amp. Randall made 400W solid state power amps and they sounded as cold and 1D as you’d expect even using actual OTs.

The only benefit I foresee is smaller footprint and less weight.

 

[ZEN Amps]

If I remember correctly, when you were starting your channel, you asked a few of us for criticism for what you were doing. I am pretty sure I didn't have anything but positive things to say since you succinctly nailed what you were going for. I have found the channel incredibly useful.

EDIT: I found our correspondence. Here is my response for your beta testing:

Well, buddy. I wasn't going to be hyper critical. But then I couldn't find anything glaringly wrong, so I was hypercritical, and couldn't find anything wrong. You fucking nailed it. I am sure it took you a long time with editing and all that.
You are giving a lot of information there, especially with the different speakers. That was the best part.
Well done.

Thanks again for that, I'm glad it's been useful! I should probably get back into it, but it's just so time consuming. But the rewards are now rolling in, we made $26 last month alone.

Synergy 0 watt is basically the exact phase inverter of the amp the module (or pedals in case of Toneking) is from, minus the power tubes, so a full 12ax7 most of the times.

Ok thanks for the clarification. In what products is not a full tube, and what replaces it?