What's the range of bias expected in a tube swap?

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Tawlks

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What I mean is, say you have your 6l6 or El34 (6l6 in my case) amp biased perfectly, and you throw in another set of 6l6s from a different brand, or same brand (I wanna know both) really what's the largest difference you can expect from a matched quad?

I've installed JJs into my 5150 II but haven't biased, it's going down to the tech tonight to get looked over (having problems with cutting out) and I figured I'd get the better set of power valves I have set up seeing as he'll be looking at the bias anyway!
 
You know, I''m not really sure there is a set range. I"ve had them so far out to where I can't even get them in the bias range of my amp's trim pot!! Had to send them back for a different set. Each set is so different. Even though I'm no fan of GT tubes, that's where their rating system is helpful as you can get same "rated" tubes and they will supposedly plug right in without bias. I always always check regardless. Man, pony up the cash and get a Weber Bias Rite or one of the other cool bias tools. Makes it so easy and you'll save tons of $$ and time in the future without having to take it to a tech.
 
I'm not sure about 5150s, but usually its: Measure your plate voltage. Then divide the dissipation of the tube by the pV. Take 60%-80% of that, and thats what you bias your amp to.
 
tbdmlog":lte83pv9 said:
I'm not sure about 5150s, but usually its: Measure your plate voltage. Then divide the dissipation of the tube by the pV. Take 60%-80% of that, and thats what you bias your amp to.

But could I play my amp today without it being biased?
 
If google informs me correctly, the mkII had an adjustable bias.


I'm no expert, but I don't think it's good to play any amp with an adjustable bias without biasing it beforehand.


I'd just take it to a tech if I were you.
 
Mudder":22lskb56 said:
I thought 5150's were fixed bias anyway.

They are, but that's not what "Fixed Bias" means. Fixed bias means that the bias is set with a resistor.
In amps like Marshalls, the bias is set by a pot, which is adjustable and allows you to fine-tune the bias for a set of tubes. They're still fixed bias, the difference is that Marshalls have adjustable fixed bias.

Amps like 5150s and Mesas have non-adjustable fixed bias, meaning that the bias is set by a fixed resistor and there's no way to change it to match the tubes.

tbdmlog":22lskb56 said:
If google informs me correctly, the mkII had an adjustable bias.


I'm no expert, but I don't think it's good to play any amp with an adjustable bias without biasing it beforehand.

I'd just take it to a tech if I were you.

While this is true, the II/+ are biased so damn cold that even cranking the bias as hot as it will go will still rarely ever get you above 65%. My original 5150 was biased right around 12ma stock, which is around 19% dissipation.

Tawlks":22lskb56 said:
But could I play my amp today without it being biased?

Yes. Unless your amp has been modded, your 5150 is biased so cold that there's just about zero possible way that you'll damage anything.

I've read Hartley Peavey's thoughts on the subject, and he specifically designs his amps with the bias set cold so that you get maximum headroom, maximum tube life, and don't have to send the amp to a tech every time you need to change tubes. This is also why a lot of Peavey amps (the 5150 especially) sound noticeably better with a bias mod to get the bias set in the correct range. It's a super-easy mod, takes like 1/2 hour, and makes a noticeable difference in how good the amp sounds.
 
Right. When I typed "fixed bias" I assumed it would be understood to be fixed via resistor. Of course, you could change it out, or remove it for a resistor w/pot to make bias adjustable. I suppose that mod could have been done to this amp.

My point was that if the bias is "fixed" then the design allows for various tubes of the same type to be used without worrying about bias much.
 
Mudder":64wvvi2d said:
My point was that if the bias is "fixed" then the design allows for various tubes of the same type to be used without worrying about bias much.

That's unfortunately not the case. There is no "fixed bias" circuit which makes it safe for various tubes--even of the same type--unless the bias voltage is set to a very skewed value such that it biases most tubes "cold".

Getting the term "fixed bias" confused with a bias supply circuit which has no adjustment control (which may even include "cathode bias"), leads to problems understanding what a person should do when changing tubes.

"Fixed bias" means the voltage supplied to the tubes can remain (mostly, realistically) constant irrespective of how the tubes are operating in the circuit; the bias voltage comes from a separate circuit outside the operation of the tube, set to a specific voltage value. This voltage value is set to be appropriate for the tubes in the design at the time. There is usually a resistor to help establish the correct value of voltage, and that resistor can be variable (a potentiometer or varistor) for adjustment. That particular bias voltage can't be counted on to be appropriate for other tubes unless they've been tested to coincidentally bias the same under those exact conditions, such was when you buy Mesa-branded replacement tubes for your Mesa amplifier which has no bias pot. "Fixed bias" doesn't imply that the bias can or cannot be adjusted. The term only refers to the voltage, which can be set to a specific constant (fixed) value. If anything "fixed bias" implies that the bias voltage should be adjusted for different tubes (even the same brand/type) since the bias voltage is coming from a relatively independent circuit (independent of the operation of the tubes). That is of course with the exception of vendors selling tubes tested to bias appropriately under the conditions the amplifier provides (such as buying Mesa-branded tubes for stock Mesa amps).

With "cathode bias", the operation of the tube generally set the bias. Even though there has to be an appropriate cathode resistor in place, usually it can be ballparked for its value for the appropriate bias voltage various tubes will require in the circuit. If a tube draws more or less current, the bias voltage changes based on the current the tube is drawing and a suitable balance establishes. This isn't perfect for all tubes of course but it's a lot more "plug and play" than fixed bias, by a long shot.

"Fixed bias" can result in widely varying current draw from tube to tube if the voltage isn't adjusted/set properly for the different tubes. Even in a stock 5150 you can't count on every 6L6 biasing in a normal or "cold" range. It may be likely that most 6L6 will bias in a safe range but it's still best to check.

As for "adjustable fixed bias" and "non-adjustable fixed bias", unfortunately most people try to shorten this to save time explaining things and usually get it wrong in the process. :) Also, whereas "fixed bias" is a term used to describe a sort of bias circuit, "adjustable" and "non-adjustable" usually isn't considered part of the circuit's normal description. The difference is too slight, relying only on whether a resistor or varistor/potentiometer is in the circuit in a particular place. That's why you don't see it mentioned much in regards to "what sort of fixed bias circuit" is in an amp. Some manufacturers presume you know there's an adjustment pot (most makers of fixed-bias amps), some presume you know there isn't (such as Mesa). Add to that the confusion which arises from people used to 1) using replacement tubes which bias the same, from a particular vendor who tests for this in specific amps, and 2) replacing tubes and not adjusting the bias, and "everything was fine" (in other words, things coincidentally were ok, but the person goes on to presume it's always going to work out the same). This is why the nature of "fixed bias" is so misunderstood.
 
Mudder":15gopx5a said:
I thought 5150's were fixed bias anyway.

Not the mk II, it has a bias trim, but I gather it does nothing. The amp's at the tech's so it's not an issue now, he's biasing it for free as he's giving the amp a complete lookover. He pointed out a few design flaws which took me by surprise (Well, not flaws exactly.. but yeah)
 
Sixtonoize":34tqv7yl said:
Mudder":34tqv7yl said:
I thought 5150's were fixed bias anyway.

They are, but that's not what "Fixed Bias" means. Fixed bias means that the bias is set with a resistor.
In amps like Marshalls, the bias is set by a pot, which is adjustable and allows you to fine-tune the bias for a set of tubes. They're still fixed bias, the difference is that Marshalls have adjustable fixed bias.

Amps like 5150s and Mesas have non-adjustable fixed bias, meaning that the bias is set by a fixed resistor and there's no way to change it to match the tubes.

tbdmlog":34tqv7yl said:
If google informs me correctly, the mkII had an adjustable bias.


I'm no expert, but I don't think it's good to play any amp with an adjustable bias without biasing it beforehand.

I'd just take it to a tech if I were you.

Thanks for all the info man, good tips there! :thumbsup: Cheers.
While this is true, the II/+ are biased so damn cold that even cranking the bias as hot as it will go will still rarely ever get you above 65%. My original 5150 was biased right around 12ma stock, which is around 19% dissipation.

Tawlks":34tqv7yl said:
But could I play my amp today without it being biased?

Yes. Unless your amp has been modded, your 5150 is biased so cold that there's just about zero possible way that you'll damage anything.

I've read Hartley Peavey's thoughts on the subject, and he specifically designs his amps with the bias set cold so that you get maximum headroom, maximum tube life, and don't have to send the amp to a tech every time you need to change tubes. This is also why a lot of Peavey amps (the 5150 especially) sound noticeably better with a bias mod to get the bias set in the correct range. It's a super-easy mod, takes like 1/2 hour, and makes a noticeable difference in how good the amp sounds.
 
JamesPeters":3pbqqdxr said:
Mudder":3pbqqdxr said:
My point was that if the bias is "fixed" then the design allows for various tubes of the same type to be used without worrying about bias much.

That's unfortunately not the case. There is no "fixed bias" circuit which makes it safe for various tubes--even of the same type--unless the bias voltage is set to a very skewed value such that it biases most tubes "cold".

Getting the term "fixed bias" confused with a bias supply circuit which has no adjustment control (which may even include "cathode bias"), leads to problems understanding what a person should do when changing tubes.

"Fixed bias" means the voltage supplied to the tubes can remain (mostly, realistically) constant irrespective of how the tubes are operating in the circuit; the bias voltage comes from a separate circuit outside the operation of the tube, set to a specific voltage value. This voltage value is set to be appropriate for the tubes in the design at the time. There is usually a resistor to help establish the correct value of voltage, and that resistor can be variable (a potentiometer or varistor) for adjustment. That particular bias voltage can't be counted on to be appropriate for other tubes unless they've been tested to coincidentally bias the same under those exact conditions, such was when you buy Mesa-branded replacement tubes for your Mesa amplifier which has no bias pot. "Fixed bias" doesn't imply that the bias can or cannot be adjusted. The term only refers to the voltage, which can be set to a specific constant (fixed) value. If anything "fixed bias" implies that the bias voltage should be adjusted for different tubes (even the same brand/type) since the bias voltage is coming from a relatively independent circuit (independent of the operation of the tubes). That is of course with the exception of vendors selling tubes tested to bias appropriately under the conditions the amplifier provides (such as buying Mesa-branded tubes for stock Mesa amps).

With "cathode bias", the operation of the tube generally set the bias. Even though there has to be an appropriate cathode resistor in place, usually it can be ballparked for its value for the appropriate bias voltage various tubes will require in the circuit. If a tube draws more or less current, the bias voltage changes based on the current the tube is drawing and a suitable balance establishes. This isn't perfect for all tubes of course but it's a lot more "plug and play" than fixed bias, by a long shot.

"Fixed bias" can result in widely varying current draw from tube to tube if the voltage isn't adjusted/set properly for the different tubes. Even in a stock 5150 you can't count on every 6L6 biasing in a normal or "cold" range. It may be likely that most 6L6 will bias in a safe range but it's still best to check.

As for "adjustable fixed bias" and "non-adjustable fixed bias", unfortunately most people try to shorten this to save time explaining things and usually get it wrong in the process. :) Also, whereas "fixed bias" is a term used to describe a sort of bias circuit, "adjustable" and "non-adjustable" usually isn't considered part of the circuit's normal description. The difference is too slight, relying only on whether a resistor or varistor/potentiometer is in the circuit in a particular place. That's why you don't see it mentioned much in regards to "what sort of fixed bias circuit" is in an amp. Some manufacturers presume you know there's an adjustment pot (most makers of fixed-bias amps), some presume you know there isn't (such as Mesa). Add to that the confusion which arises from people used to 1) using replacement tubes which bias the same, from a particular vendor who tests for this in specific amps, and 2) replacing tubes and not adjusting the bias, and "everything was fine" (in other words, things coincidentally were ok, but the person goes on to presume it's always going to work out the same). This is why the nature of "fixed bias" is so misunderstood.
Canadian smartypants with your data and experience. Don't you have a bitchin' amp to assemble? :lol: :LOL:
 
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