Why Can't I Get A Good Recorded Tone?

[sixstrings]

I've accepted that I'm kind of a sucky player so I didn't post this to get feedback on my playing. I just created a quick little improv to get some help with my tone and recording. Here's the details of my recording gear and process:

BOSS BR600
SM57 miced pointing at an angle to the speaker
No added EQ or effects

Marshall DSL100
Maxon AD999 delay (set for a touch of delay)
Fender HSS Strat

Channel 2 gain (not Ultra setting)
Depth: OFF
Tone Shift: OFF
Bass: 12:00
Mids: 12:00
Treble: 11:00
Presence 11:00
Gain: 2:00

1. Record rhythm & lead tracks
2. upload .WAV files to computer
3. Use Sony Sound Forge to combine tracks and increase output volume (careful not to add distortion)
4. Export MP3

That's pretty much it. I think my tone is pretty good until I hear it recorded. Maybe my ears are fucked up. Some help would be appreciated.

 

[gbsmusic]

It sounds a little thin to me but I think your being a little hard on yourself. I'm not a very good judge because I dont know shit about recording. I like everyones recordings and I want to record some things soon. I also have a BR600 but I've never learned to use it. If you dont like it just keep experimenting and you'll there but I like it!!

 

[hunter]

The tone appears thin and lacking mids and meat. It also sounds very distant, as if the mic wouldn't be up close on the speaker. SM57s add a lot of low end and punch if you put them 2" or less up to the grill, which could help here I think.

Also wondering if it could be the speaker, what are you using there?

I haven't used a Boss BR600, so I can't tell if that has an impact, but my suspicion would be that it doesn't have a proper mic preamp and expects line signal or something.

It would help if you'd use the same settings and setup, but try recording with a proper mic pre and a good A/D into a DAW like logic or cubase, just to eliminate the possible failuer areas. If it would still sound bad, the issue would be on the mic positioning / speaker / amp (settings) side. But I'd rather imagine it's on the recording side, so mic pre or signal impedance mismatch or something the like.

Good luck investigating further.

 

[Kaleiwahea]

What don't you like about it? We could help you more if we knew what you were going for.

To me, it sounds like it was recorded at low volume, which means you had to get the mic pretty hot to get a decent signal. Pair that with the level of quality of your recording gear (mic pre's, A/D converters in the recorder, etc.), and you get your results. The tone of the lead sounds good to me, it just wasn't transfered well to your recording. The clean guitar part sounds a little muffled for my tastes (needs more high end), that's just personal.

Keep at it, good luck!

 

[JTyson]

The rabbit-hole is cruel and unforgiving your being too hard on yourself. I agree with Kaliwahea, it sounds like your volume was a little low and your mike level a little high. also sounds like your mike position was off. Its amazing what a few degrees in any direction will do, try a slight move towards the cone for more top, but not a lot more. It would add a little immediacy so its not quite as distant sounding. 57's usually sound better close to the grill, but the relation to the cone is critical (axial positioning). Its tough when you first start messing with that stuff, you might be thinking that a bit back will add some depth to the tone, but it ends up sounding a bit distant. Its tough to get a great guitar sound without a good mic-pre, although you can get a decent one. I think the mix between clean and the lead track is adding to the distant sound of the lead track, it could be a hair hotter. Some here dont really care for 57's, but there is a reason they are a fixture in every studio in the land. I think they are great mikes, even better when combined with a Senn 421. A lot of guys go in the opposite direction and have it too close to the cone where it sounds too thin, at least you got a thick tone, which I would prefer if I had to choose. Part of the problem may be the way you are monitoring what you are recording while you are playing over the recorded track. I am assuming you put the clean part down first (who wouldn't?) and listened to it through headphones while playing over it, sometimes headphones are giving you a false picture of what you are playing. When those things are strapped to your ears, there is more immediacy just because of the closeness, but when you listen on something else the truth comes out. Also, try to get away from the source if you are going through headphones, you are still hearing the amp even though you have headphones on, and I can tell by your statements the amp sounded nothing like what you ended up with. Enjoy the process, everything you record will teach you something about recording, and yours is not as bad as you think - Jim

 

[muudrock]

I agree with the other guys, don't be too hard on yourself. It can be hard to get what you hear in your head and in the room down to tape so to speak. You really need to keep experimenting with volume, amp eq, and mic placement. Most microphones do not "hear" the sound like your ears do so what your hearing in the room as far as your sound is not going to be what get's recorded.
The one thing that helped me out with this was to record several duplicatetracks, one at a time and move the mic position everytime. Don't change anything else. After you've recorded a few tracks go back and listen and note what you like or don't like about it and write it down. You'll figure out the best way to get a good sound recorded. The other thing to remember is that a guitar sound that sounds great by itself, probably won't work in an overall mix with Bass, Drums, Vocals, etc. Conversely, a guitar that sounds nasty recorded by itself can fit in a mix and sound great. This was a big lesson for me.

It's all experimentation, trial and error. But, a 57 on a Marshall is a combination that has worked for years with great results. Keep at it.

 

[sixstrings]

Thanks for the comments everyone. I should have noted the following:

* I had my SM57 pointed at an angle to the speaker of my Mesa 2x12 with V30's.

* The mic was positioned almost touching the grillcloth because of the volume. At louder volumes I try to keep the mic about 2" away from the grill cloth.

* I experimented with various mic positionings. I tried directly pointing towards the center, the middle and outer edge of the speaker, but I think my best results were pointing it from the outer edge towards the inner at an angle.

* The volume of my amp was loud enough to play jazz with a drummer.

* I used KRK VXT4 studio monitors to monitor the mic placement.

* I have my mic going into a Peavey 4-channel mixer, then the mixer mic output going into the mic input of my BR600. I get the same results going direclty into the BR600 so I leave it like that. My mixer is set all flat so I'm not adding anything or taking anything away from the volume or EQ.

By the way, I know I stated otherwise, but does my playing suck as much as I think it does? Maybe my technique is fucking up my tone or something. Well I pick and fret pretty clean, keep an average angle on my pick attack, and try to use dynamics, so I think I'm doing it well, but I feel like a fat guy looking in the mirror and seeing a skinny guy or something.

 

[rupe]

Some good advice in this thread. Even easier is to go buy an Axe-FX...mic problem solved

You seem pretty self conscious about your playing so I'll address what I'm hearing. Overall, pretty good. I would work on picking/fingering synchronization...it seemed that on some (not all) of your quick alternate picked passages that you got out of synch a bit. Also pay attention to your intonation/pitch when bending to make sure you land in a "sweet spot"...this is probably the most common issue that I used to see when I was a guitar teacher, so you are far from alone.
Good luck!

 

[stratotone]

I know you and I are taking potshots at each other in that other thread, so take this for what it's worth.

If you can, get some headphones that isolate well so you can hear what your microphone hears, not your 'live room' sound. Now get some poor bastard to move your mic around VERY slowly while you listen.

My favorite tones have been with an SM57 straight on the to cab, about 1" outside the dust cap. That's where I usually start. Also when recording, it always sounds like you have more gain than you really do, so try to use the cleanest tone you can. What you want to do is dial the amp in for the RECORDING, not the live sound. You can have a recorded tone that sounds awesome through the microphone on tape, but sounds like crap in the room. Also the tone that sounds best for the song may not be the fullest sound on it's own either. It has to fit the sonic 'space' you have for it.

One other option is to get a good direct box with a cab emulator - like a palmer or something, and use that instead of a mic.

Pete

 

[redrol]

You need a good preamp, preferebly a tube based one. Thats probably about it. Well that and turn the volume up a lot.

* The volume of my amp was loud enough to play jazz with a drummer.

That is not even close to what you need for good tone on a Marshall

 

[stratotone]

You need a good preamp, preferebly a tube based one. Thats probably about it. Well that and turn the volume up a lot.

* The volume of my amp was loud enough to play jazz with a drummer.

That is not even close to what you need for good tone on a Marshall

Depends on the Marshall. Plexi - yes, JCM800 or later - probably not so much. Just my opinion.

Pete

 

[sixstrings]

Some good advice in this thread. Even easier is to go buy an Axe-FX...mic problem solved

You seem pretty self conscious about your playing so I'll address what I'm hearing. Overall, pretty good. I would work on picking/fingering synchronization...it seemed that on some (not all) of your quick alternate picked passages that you got out of synch a bit. Also pay attention to your intonation/pitch when bending to make sure you land in a "sweet spot"...this is probably the most common issue that I used to see when I was a guitar teacher, so you are far from alone.
Good luck!

Thanks so much for the feedback. I was making that shit up as I went along and I have a hard time improvising fluidly. I wish I could be like Joe Stump and be able to go in cold and shred perfectly, but I don't think I'll ever be that good. Shit I don't think I could improvise that fluid if my life depended on it. LOL I'd have to rehearse or something. I think I'm going to take your advice and work on my bending with a tuner or something. I hate out-of-pitch bends.

 

[sixstrings]

I know you and I are taking potshots at each other in that other thread, so take this for what it's worth.

If you can, get some headphones that isolate well so you can hear what your microphone hears, not your 'live room' sound. Now get some poor bastard to move your mic around VERY slowly while you listen.

My favorite tones have been with an SM57 straight on the to cab, about 1" outside the dust cap. That's where I usually start. Also when recording, it always sounds like you have more gain than you really do, so try to use the cleanest tone you can. What you want to do is dial the amp in for the RECORDING, not the live sound. You can have a recorded tone that sounds awesome through the microphone on tape, but sounds like crap in the room. Also the tone that sounds best for the song may not be the fullest sound on it's own either. It has to fit the sonic 'space' you have for it.

One other option is to get a good direct box with a cab emulator - like a palmer or something, and use that instead of a mic.

Pete

No problem Pete. I don't take it personally. Your opinion is much appreciated. I do run my studio monitors in an isolate area to test mic positioning and EQ stuff, but I haven't tried headphones. That sounds like a good idea. Also, I'm not sure I even need studio monitors because it always sounds even shittier through studio monitors and no one uses them for listening anyway.

You need a good preamp, preferebly a tube based one. Thats probably about it. Well that and turn the volume up a lot.

* The volume of my amp was loud enough to play jazz with a drummer.

That is not even close to what you need for good tone on a Marshall

I agree, but with my family at home that's about as good as it's going to get. I've been thinking about getting an attenuator.

 

[rupe]

Some good advice in this thread. Even easier is to go buy an Axe-FX...mic problem solved

You seem pretty self conscious about your playing so I'll address what I'm hearing. Overall, pretty good. I would work on picking/fingering synchronization...it seemed that on some (not all) of your quick alternate picked passages that you got out of synch a bit. Also pay attention to your intonation/pitch when bending to make sure you land in a "sweet spot"...this is probably the most common issue that I used to see when I was a guitar teacher, so you are far from alone.
Good luck!

Thanks so much for the feedback. I was making that shit up as I went along and I have a hard time improvising fluidly. I wish I could be like Joe Stump and be able to go in cold and shred perfectly, but I don't think I'll ever be that good. Shit I don't think I could improvise that fluid if my life depended on it. LOL I'd have to rehearse or something. I think I'm going to take your advice and work on my bending with a tuner or something. I hate out-of-pitch bends.

Even easier is to play your target note and then bend to it. I'd start with 1/2 step, full step, and 1 1/2 step bends. Once you nail those you can work on micro bends if you see fit. One thing to keep in mind is that different guitars will respond differently...things like string gauge, scale length, and spring tension (Floyd Rose, etc) will all affect the "feel" of your bends so be sure to use your ear and don't rely on feel when using different guitars.

 

[sixstrings]

Some good advice in this thread. Even easier is to go buy an Axe-FX...mic problem solved

You seem pretty self conscious about your playing so I'll address what I'm hearing. Overall, pretty good. I would work on picking/fingering synchronization...it seemed that on some (not all) of your quick alternate picked passages that you got out of synch a bit. Also pay attention to your intonation/pitch when bending to make sure you land in a "sweet spot"...this is probably the most common issue that I used to see when I was a guitar teacher, so you are far from alone.
Good luck!

Thanks so much for the feedback. I was making that shit up as I went along and I have a hard time improvising fluidly. I wish I could be like Joe Stump and be able to go in cold and shred perfectly, but I don't think I'll ever be that good. Shit I don't think I could improvise that fluid if my life depended on it. LOL I'd have to rehearse or something. I think I'm going to take your advice and work on my bending with a tuner or something. I hate out-of-pitch bends.

Even easier is to play your target note and then bend to it. I'd start with 1/2 step, full step, and 1 1/2 step bends. Once you nail those you can work on micro bends if you see fit. One thing to keep in mind is that different guitars will respond differently...things like string gauge, scale length, and spring tension (Floyd Rose, etc) will all affect the "feel" of your bends so be sure to use your ear and don't rely on feel when using different guitars.

Yeah that's how I normally practice bends either by hitting the target note first or sliding up to pitch. However, when improvising or making stuff up as I go along, it's hard to hit pitch every time when you're thinking about timing, phrasing, position, etc... I think maybe using a strobe tuner or something might help me visualize my bends better so I know where I'm messing up.

Although I've owned guitar and amps for many years, I've only been really playing for 2 years. Even with all the practice I put into it, I still sound like a damned newb. This shit is hard.

 

[amiller]

Try two 57s pointed straight in about 1/2 - 1 inch from the outer edge of the dust cap. Also, try different distances from the speaker. I used to get right up against the grill but I'm finding more clarity at about 1 -1 & 1/2 inches...personal taste. As for volume, I DON'T like what an attenuator does to my sound. I record my Bogner with the volume at about 3-4 on a 1-10 scale. Most important of all, make sure your unrecorded guitar sound, the guitar as it sounds to you in the room, is what you’re after. Garbage in, garbage out!

I would also try recording the guitar sound you want against different backing tracks and see how it sounds in the mix. I'm always surprised how different my guitar sounds, with the exact same settings, over different backing tracks. I sometimes get so caught up in tweaking the process that I forget to put it into proper context. In other words, I think it's much harder to get good recorded tone in a vacuum.

One other thing I've found useful is a moveable partition. I took two 3' X 4' panels and hinged them together length wise. Then I glued acoustic foam pieces on both panels. I put this in front of the speaker cab/mic setup to control some of the crappy reflections in my home studio. I move the partition closer or further back from the cab depending on what sound I'm looking for. It's amazing to me how much of a difference this makes. Further away gives it more room sound and closer gets a tighter more focused tone...hey, works for me.

This is, of course, is all IMHO as a bedroom recorder wanker and by no means the gospel. I'm never truly satisfied and I'm always experimenting.

 

[sixstrings]

Try two 57s pointed straight in about 1/2 - 1 inch from the outer edge of the dust cap. Also, try different distances from the speaker. I used to get right up against the grill but I'm finding more clarity at about 1 -1 & 1/2 inches...personal taste. As for volume, I DON'T like what an attenuator does to my sound. I record my Bogner with the volume at about 3-4 on a 1-10 scale. Most important of all, make sure your unrecorded guitar sound, the guitar as it sounds to you in the room, is what you’re after. Garbage in, garbage out!

I would also try recording the guitar sound you want against different backing tracks and see how it sounds in the mix. I'm always surprised how different my guitar sounds, with the exact same settings, over different backing tracks. I sometimes get so caught up in tweaking the process that I forget to put it into proper context. In other words, I think it's much harder to get good recorded tone in a vacuum.

One other thing I've found useful is a moveable partition. I took two 3' X 4' panels and hinged them together length wise. Then I glued acoustic foam pieces on both panels. I put this in front of the speaker cab/mic setup to control some of the crappy reflections in my home studio. I move the partition closer or further back from the cab depending on what sound I'm looking for. It's amazing to me how much of a difference this makes. Further away gives it more room sound and closer gets a tighter more focused tone...hey, works for me.

This is, of course, is all IMHO as a bedroom recorder wanker and by no means the gospel. I'm never truly satisfied and I'm always experimenting.

So partition each speaker and use two mics in different positions for optimum sound?

 

[jerrydyer]

I just did some tech work for a guy with a DSL. The resistors and caps on the gain stages arent even close to marshall typical values. Also just curios why is almost everything at the 1200 oclock pos. Marshalls work in reverse meaning you are attenuating a lot of tone.

 

[amiller]

Try two 57s pointed straight in about 1/2 - 1 inch from the outer edge of the dust cap. Also, try different distances from the speaker. I used to get right up against the grill but I'm finding more clarity at about 1 -1 & 1/2 inches...personal taste. As for volume, I DON'T like what an attenuator does to my sound. I record my Bogner with the volume at about 3-4 on a 1-10 scale. Most important of all, make sure your unrecorded guitar sound, the guitar as it sounds to you in the room, is what you’re after. Garbage in, garbage out!

I would also try recording the guitar sound you want against different backing tracks and see how it sounds in the mix. I'm always surprised how different my guitar sounds, with the exact same settings, over different backing tracks. I sometimes get so caught up in tweaking the process that I forget to put it into proper context. In other words, I think it's much harder to get good recorded tone in a vacuum.

One other thing I've found useful is a moveable partition. I took two 3' X 4' panels and hinged them together length wise. Then I glued acoustic foam pieces on both panels. I put this in front of the speaker cab/mic setup to control some of the crappy reflections in my home studio. I move the partition closer or further back from the cab depending on what sound I'm looking for. It's amazing to me how much of a difference this makes. Further away gives it more room sound and closer gets a tighter more focused tone...hey, works for me.

This is, of course, is all IMHO as a bedroom recorder wanker and by no means the gospel. I'm never truly satisfied and I'm always experimenting.

So partition each speaker and use two mics in different positions for optimum sound?

No, no. I use the partition to isolate the entire cab a little bit from the rest of the room...I don't partition individual speakers. Imagine two panels in a V shape in front of you cabinet...like this <. Also, the mics are basically in the same position...just on opposite sides of the dust cap.

 

[locoed]

Have you tried 2 mic's and turning your amp up? Or even moving your mic around to find a
sweet spot? I spend about an hour or so moving the mic around.I remember James Hetfield
saying in an interview he spent DAYS moving the mic around to find good tone.
And also,we are our own worst critic.Hard to find a guitar player that's happy with they're
tone.Unless your Mark.