ZEN Amps
Well-known member
Thanks mate!
New video up, although I don't think it's really going to satisfy you gain freaks. Next up though is the Landry LS50G3, now that's a cool amp.
ZEN Amps YouTube thread - Friedman Dirty Shirley 40W vid up
- Thread starter ZEN Amps
- Start date
New video up, although I don't think it's really going to satisfy you gain freaks. Next up though is the Landry LS50G3, now that's a cool amp.
NVicious
Active member
Cool! Although i do like the high gain stuff, it's also good to see in depth clips of amps that i'm not that familiar with yet
Smashedguitaris⸸
Hack
Syrupy
DanTravis62
Well-known member
I'm so glad you did this, man.
The problem as mentioned above, isn't that IRs are "bad" per se; its that everyone uses the same IRs, and everyone's tones sound the same.
As a result, you don't get a good idea of what the amp actually sounds like from most YouTube demos.
Your videos actually capture the *differences* between these amps, instead of homogeneity and banality.
*Respectful nod*
The problem as mentioned above, isn't that IRs are "bad" per se; its that everyone uses the same IRs, and everyone's tones sound the same.
As a result, you don't get a good idea of what the amp actually sounds like from most YouTube demos.
Your videos actually capture the *differences* between these amps, instead of homogeneity and banality.
*Respectful nod*
Man, not to start shit, but having 8 4x12s myself micing them up constantly as well as using IR’s, I’d bet my last dollar you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between an IR of my actual cab and micing up my actual cab. You have to compare apples to apples. You can’t compare an IR of one cab mic’d by one person in a different room with different gear with different mics etc, to a REAL cab mic’d using different gear, different room, different cabinet completely ( with the same model speakers of course). That’s nowhere near apples to apples. They gotta be the exact same signal chain, minus the only difference being one is an IR and the other is the actual cabinet. Any differences you are hearing are more likely attributed to all the different factors listed above, not because “ one is digital and one is analog”.
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DanTravis62
Well-known member
true. it's not the digital vs analog, or the IR vs real mics
people hear the same fucking 4 IRs on every youtube video, and then attribute it to the fact that its an IR - not that its the same IR they hear in every youtube video.
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
For sure you can get good sounds with IR's but like anything tone related there's no guarantee you will. Besides the obvious (quality of load, selection of IR) it comes down to time, experimentation and experience.
Plenty of terrible sounding IR recordings around, but ultimately it's not all that different to the close-miking debates that pop up here occasionally. It can go as horribly wrong as any other capture technique and when it does, the car nor the racetrack should get the blame - that's on the driver.
Plenty of terrible sounding IR recordings around, but ultimately it's not all that different to the close-miking debates that pop up here occasionally. It can go as horribly wrong as any other capture technique and when it does, the car nor the racetrack should get the blame - that's on the driver.
TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
This seems to be a thing lately with people ragging on IR's. I don't get it.
A well made IR can sound *indistinguishable* from a well-miced cab, provided the amp's load is quality and resembles the cab the IR was based on as well.
I wonder if it's just that most IR's, like most mic'd cabs, sound weird in isolation because there's no backing band to give the IR's context, and they're also typically being listened to without any post processing like EQ. A lot of people think any single IR should make them sound as good as their favorite record even when played in isolation. Like as with a real cab, that's just not how it works.
Whatever it is, IR's are not inherently inferior to mic'd cabs. They don't automatically sound "fake" just because they're IR's.
edit: looks like there was already some conversation about this in the thread, hah.
Nothing wrong with liking IR's, I just don't. They're a digital recreation of a mic'd speaker and it sounds that way to me. Something gets lost in the 1's and 0's. They also don't seem to react the same way to turning the amp up and down like a speaker does.
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Monkey Man
Super Moderator
Agreed mate. The way I like to put it is that they're "static". They can sound great, but what you see is what you get.
I like Kemper's speaker capture. Cabs react "organically" like a real speakers. Peeps forget that due to inertia, physical and electrical impedance and so on real speakers react differently depending upon input and even immediately-previous input.
I like Kemper's speaker capture. Cabs react "organically" like a real speakers. Peeps forget that due to inertia, physical and electrical impedance and so on real speakers react differently depending upon input and even immediately-previous input.
saxxamafone
Well-known member
True but the everyone sounds the same has been around in guitar land for decades.
In the 80's a lot of guys playing JCM800s and ADA preamps.
2000's all metal guys playing 5150s and Rectos.
DanTravis62
Well-known member
You and I both know it's way, WAY worse now.
saxxamafone
Well-known member
Amen to all this.
I'm a pretty old school player but IRs have been a game changer when made and used the right way.
Some guys seem to forget crap tone still existed before modelers and IRs.
saxxamafone
Well-known member
Yep it is but i'd blame amp modelers and sharing of presets probably more than just IRs.
Same with some of those drum samples that have been used to death because everyone was using the same pack.
These guys are full of shit if they think they can tell the difference in a true blind test with no variables, im sorry but this is crazy. I am one of snobbiest tone guys on this board by far, but I love and embrace technology as much as I can. IR’s are fantastic, and are indistinguishable from
The real thing, Atleast enough for someone to guess everytime. I have no doubts someone might get lucky once or twice guessing, but they are lying to themselves if they truly believe they can hear a difference. I may be putting my foot in my mouth, but I doubt anyone on here can tell when I’m micing up a cab vs using an IR unless I say so.
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
The great IR war will probably rage on for a bit, then it will become so common that no one can remember a time before them.
I agree the end result can be indistinguishable, but playing devil's advocate - the creative process is different, which usually leads to different outcomes.
Taking EQ out of the scenario, try this as an example. Say I have a 57 and 421 on a cab and I want to hear less high end - I can move 1 mike, or both, or angle either or both. I do that and the low end is a now touch thick - I can pull them both back an inch, or maybe engage the filter on the 421. Shit the 57 is still a bit gnarly, I'll swap in a 545. Bam - cool tone, let's rock.
Now I'm aware you can do similar things with IR's, but it's a very different process. If you've got 1000's of them (and who doesn't) then finding that 57 an inch left and an inch back could take secs or it could take hours, who knows. Does that IR pack have a 421... with a HPF option? Is there a slightly smoother 57 at hand? Are they phase aligned? Is the load messing the low end? Anyway the list goes on but I'm sure you can see my point.
An amazing artist can probably paint something beautiful with a tooth brush rather than his favourite brush, but how will it change the process? Maybe he'll be inspired to paint something quite different because the tools can drive the process too of course.
While I'm ranting, same with modellers. Comparing the two in a blind test is fine, but that's only telling part of the story. I mean an Axe FX can probably do pretty convincing Sad But True tone with enough experimenting - but would that tone even exist if they only had the Axe back then, and not the MkIII. That one's for you VES.
I agree the end result can be indistinguishable, but playing devil's advocate - the creative process is different, which usually leads to different outcomes.
Taking EQ out of the scenario, try this as an example. Say I have a 57 and 421 on a cab and I want to hear less high end - I can move 1 mike, or both, or angle either or both. I do that and the low end is a now touch thick - I can pull them both back an inch, or maybe engage the filter on the 421. Shit the 57 is still a bit gnarly, I'll swap in a 545. Bam - cool tone, let's rock.
Now I'm aware you can do similar things with IR's, but it's a very different process. If you've got 1000's of them (and who doesn't) then finding that 57 an inch left and an inch back could take secs or it could take hours, who knows. Does that IR pack have a 421... with a HPF option? Is there a slightly smoother 57 at hand? Are they phase aligned? Is the load messing the low end? Anyway the list goes on but I'm sure you can see my point.
An amazing artist can probably paint something beautiful with a tooth brush rather than his favourite brush, but how will it change the process? Maybe he'll be inspired to paint something quite different because the tools can drive the process too of course.
While I'm ranting, same with modellers. Comparing the two in a blind test is fine, but that's only telling part of the story. I mean an Axe FX can probably do pretty convincing Sad But True tone with enough experimenting - but would that tone even exist if they only had the Axe back then, and not the MkIII. That one's for you VES.
skoora
Well-known member
It all goes back to an emotional experience. Just as playing and how we achieve a sound is really driven by our emotions, so can how we record. For e.g. Modellers vs. Amps. I think modellers and some sims sound pretty amazing but the difference in pleasure I get out of turning knobs, feeling air out of a cab, even smelling the amp vs. using a keyboard and mouse are light years apart. Same with recording. Unfortunately tape is no longer viable these days but I would much rather use mics on speakers, patchbays and outboard gear through a board if I could because emotionally its my happier place than working in the box. Plus I was always a lot more creative in achieving what was in my head using those outdated ways than trying to figure it out with software...lol
On a side note, some Slayer from Seasons came on in my phone and it just really jumped out at me how homogenized newer music/metal sounds because of software and the laziness it seems to foster. Love hearing a recording where it's so full of the personality and style of the band. No mistaking who it is when a song starts from back then. Most metal bands today I couldn't begin to tell you unless the vocalist is unique. Even the new Megadeth. Couldn't say until Mustaine starts singing.
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Hahaha! Well played at the end
100 percent agree. That is always my issue with IR’s, you are essentially using someone else’s gear and ears for your tone. Maybe it clicks with your tastes, maybe it doesn’t. I believe this is why I like EAS’s IR’s because he does exactly what I do when micing a cab. All 4 speakers get mic’d ( not at the same time but you know what I mean haha) and then slight incremental moves across the speaker, both left and right of it because they sound different. Many people do a lot of IR’s in a pack, but there’s no rhyme or reason as to how they are organized or how they were taken. Very few do it like this, and I love this setup because I know where I’m at “virtually” on the speaker.
At the end of the day your points are dead on, and a reason to experiment doing your own IR’s if you have the availability to do so. Nothing will beat that outside of your real mic’d up amp. I also encourage people to buy as many IR’s as they can of the same cab/speaker because as most of us know, they can all sound ( do) incredibly different. Speakers are a complete lottery I’m convinced. Sometimes I’ll just buy speakers, same models of ones I already have, to see if I like those particular ones better. I’ve got so much of the exact same gear it’s stupid, but they all sound so different. My Marshall G12 speakers are all insanely different and I can’t even judge what years sound like what becsuse they are all over the place. If you really don’t mind swapping out speakers, THIS is the way to creating new and exciting tones to me. Sure a v30 at the end of the day will sound like a v30, but the character, brightness, gnarlyness etc of each one of them can be vastly different.