Changing to EL34's and also Stereo Cabinet Question. (VH4)

MesaSean

MesaSean

Active member
Hey folks, while I owned and used a VH4 and VH4S for years back in the early to mid 2000's; I have some noob questions about swapping tubes. I also have some questions about my old 2008 Diezel 4X12, that maybe some folks can help me out with.

So with my brand new 2018 VH4 I just got... can i just swap out tubes and put in EL34's... and not have the amp biased by a place? (I know nothing about biasing an amp) Also what tubes (and tones for that matter) do you folks tend to prefer in your VH4's? I love messing around with different tones with my old Mesa's back in the day and did that with changing Tubes a bit.

Also have a look at my cabinet inputs. It's a 2008 Rear loaded Diezel cab from 2008. Right now I am running 1x4 Ohm out to the 8Ohm jack as I am a home player and it does indeed help with the volume. I can raise and mess with the master/channel volumes a bit more.

Since the inputs on the cab say 16 Ohm and 16Ohm (Left side and right side)... I am assuming this is a stereo cabinet? If it is... any options to run different outputs from my VH4 into the two 16OHM inputs from my SINGLE VH4? Perhaps to have a stereo sound with regards to effects etc. I am assuming no as I would need the VH4S which I once had,

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

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Hello,

First of all - you're currently running (according to the pictures) - you amp-speaker-out as 1x8ohm mono into the mono side of the 412 speaker cabinet's input of 1x8ohm (mono). In your original message it states the amp is outing on a 1x4ohm, which it is not. Load doesn't affect volume - just to let you know. It has more to do with balancing the tranformers of the amp so that output matches load. It is imperative to always match output with load and never mismatch (even though some say certain combinations *can* be done, it's just simply not recommended).

Secondly - you can't run your current amp as a stereo (dual output) amp with any purpose into this cabinet. I say "without any purpose" as the cabinet is designed to run as a mono cabinet to its entirety with 1 amp powering it. Sure, you could go "split" to go 2x16ohm out on your amp and plug into the the 2x16ohm stereo-ins of the cabinet, but it's a highly unecessary step as, right now, you've got all the power from one amp fully powering one cabinet - totally. In the event of two outs on the amp to the two ins of the cabinet, you'd essentially be powering 2x12" cones on both sides of the 412 cab with each lead out of the amp - 100% unecessary. Right now, one out, one in, the amp is pumping that cab to its maximum... No need to screw with it.

Thirdly - tubes. There should be a switch on the upper exposed chassis of the VH4. This toggles between 6L6 style tubes and EL34 style tubes. This is the first thing you'll need to ensure is in the correct position before biasing a new quad of EL34s. As for preferences, I think you'll find many users of the VH4 tend to lean towards the sound of the EL34, and all new production VH4 (actually, all Diezels across the model lineup) are coming with an EL34 "type" powetube as stock, the JJ KT77 (the differences between KT77 and EL34 is more heritage - american versus UK, et al) however there are some sonic differences between the two. However, since you've asked specfically about the EL34 tubeset, yes - make sure the chassis toggle is set to EL34, and bias the tubes (have you done this before??) to 34mA for light to moderate play volumes, 32mA for higher MASTER volume/stage level volumes. I'd opt for 34mA as the slightly hotter bias allows for a smoother feel and tone at lower volumes and isn't overly demanding on the powertubes with moderate use.

My big question to you is - if this is a brand new amp, did it come with stock KT77s?? Because - if you do some snooping around on this forum, you'll find many owners are quite happy with the KT77s that come stock with the amps. I'd just run them till they're dead and then start spending money on new bottles and glass. Just IMHO...I've got some new Diezels and Peter/Diezel HQ tend to put the best tubes available into their amps before shipping - and by best, that means "consistent quality, excellent tonal characteristics, low-fail rate, easily replaceable, durable, and well suited to voice the amps characteristics". I'd not fuck with it.

Lemme know if you have any other questions.
Unkle Mo

PS: Congratz on getting one of the most kickass amazing iconic amps in the world - 100% absolute LEGENDARY amp!! :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:
 
Ventura":2ihpa37o said:
Hello,

First of all - you're currently running (according to the pictures) - you amp-speaker-out as 1x8ohm mono into the mono side of the 412 speaker cabinet's input of 1x8ohm (mono). In your original message it states the amp is outing on a 1x4ohm, which it is not. Load doesn't affect volume - just to let you know. It has more to do with balancing the tranformers of the amp so that output matches load. It is imperative to always match output with load and never mismatch (even though some say certain combinations *can* be done, it's just simply not recommended).

Secondly - you can't run your current amp as a stereo (dual output) amp with any purpose into this cabinet. I say "without any purpose" as the cabinet is designed to run as a mono cabinet to its entirety with 1 amp powering it. Sure, you could go "split" to go 2x16ohm out on your amp and plug into the the 2x16ohm stereo-ins of the cabinet, but it's a highly unecessary step as, right now, you've got all the power from one amp fully powering one cabinet - totally. In the event of two outs on the amp to the two ins of the cabinet, you'd essentially be powering 2x12" cones on both sides of the 412 cab with each lead out of the amp - 100% unecessary. Right now, one out, one in, the amp is pumping that cab to its maximum... No need to screw with it.

Thirdly - tubes. There should be a switch on the upper exposed chassis of the VH4. This toggles between 6L6 style tubes and EL34 style tubes. This is the first thing you'll need to ensure is in the correct position before biasing a new quad of EL34s. As for preferences, I think you'll find many users of the VH4 tend to lean towards the sound of the EL34, and all new production VH4 (actually, all Diezels across the model lineup) are coming with an EL34 "type" powetube as stock, the JJ KT77 (the differences between KT77 and EL34 is more heritage - american versus UK, et al) however there are some sonic differences between the two. However, since you've asked specfically about the EL34 tubeset, yes - make sure the chassis toggle is set to EL34, and bias the tubes (have you done this before??) to 34mA for light to moderate play volumes, 32mA for higher MASTER volume/stage level volumes. I'd opt for 34mA as the slightly hotter bias allows for a smoother feel and tone at lower volumes and isn't overly demanding on the powertubes with moderate use.

My big question to you is - if this is a brand new amp, did it come with stock KT77s?? Because - if you do some snooping around on this forum, you'll find many owners are quite happy with the KT77s that come stock with the amps. I'd just run them till they're dead and then start spending money on new bottles and glass. Just IMHO...I've got some new Diezels and Peter/Diezel HQ tend to put the best tubes available into their amps before shipping - and by best, that means "consistent quality, excellent tonal characteristics, low-fail rate, easily replaceable, durable, and well suited to voice the amps characteristics". I'd not fuck with it.

Lemme know if you have any other questions.
Unkle Mo

PS: Congratz on getting one of the most kickass amazing iconic amps in the world - 100% absolute LEGENDARY amp!! :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:
Click to expand...

Hey Thanks for the detailed reply! (and kind words at the end... Although I had a VH4 and Vh4S back in the early/mid 2000's, so I have always loved them... but wow the new one sounds a lot better IMO than the old ones)

Yeah I tried the 4 Ohm Output into the mono 8 Ohm as I saw Peter Diezel suggest that in a thread when I was searching. It did help with the volume a bit, but not much, so I went back to 8 Ohm to mono 8 Ohm.

I am happy with the current tones so far but as I mentioned; I love to experiment with various tubes. I am not taking this thing to get biased to put in some EL34's just to test out a new tone. If I could simply swap them out for some EL34's myself and not have to bias it, then I might try it for fun. But if it needs to be biased I certainly am not qualified to do that. I am 99% sure mine has the KT77's but I have not opened up the back yet to inspect. It was brand new from 2018, so I am betting they are KT77;s.

The KT77's sounds great so far. I am still spending a lot of time dialing in my tones as I am fickle. Especially the clean. While I had Vh4's in the past, my last amp was Mesa Mark V and I was used to that sound for about 10 years. The Mark V was great, but I wanted my Diezel tone back. I will say I did prefer the clean tone on the Mark V more than this Vh4. I am a big Hetfield fanboy and play custom shop ESP MXII-CTM's with EMG 60/81's and I still have a hard time dialing in a crystal clean tone I like. I put an MXR chorus and in the channel insert (and a Time C Flashback Delay in the parallel loop) and it does help a bit as it has tone knobs on it as well as the chorus etc. I might try and EQ pedal and see if perhaps that can help me dial in a crystal/sparkly clean tone.

Any advice on getting a sparkly clean tone? I always end up setting all the knobs to 12 o clock and fiddling from there, but never can get it right hehe.

Thanks dude!
 
Any powertube swap will require a re-biasing, so yes, likely best to leave the stock bottles in place for now. I too am a fan of EL34 tubes, but have become more and more a fan of KT77s in all my otherwise EL34 loaded amps. Go figure. If the tubes are labeled with a large red JJ than the likelihood of these being KT77s is 99.9%

I've always preferred lower-moderate output pickups with my Diezel amps. I am unsure as to why, but to my ears, lower-moderate pups just give me the best of all worlds: cleans, means, metal and go-betweens...great feedback both from the amp and from my fingers to the amp. So, knowing you've got some heavier powered pups in your fiddle, we may need to take this into account with the "clean".

VH4 to me has always been more of a piano/bell like clean, as opposed to a crystalline shimmering clean amp - especially at volumes. However, with the kit you have, I'd suggest starting with your guitar controls maxed - as we can work backwards from there by hand. But Ch.1 settings for the VH4?? I don't know *exactly* what you're looking for, but to get a really nice starting "clean" tone try (and this is based on the dial's going 1-10, not "o'clock")
Gain roughtly @ 3-4 (as gain also works as a volume in this case)
Treble around 7
Mids between 4-6
Bass around 6-7 (depends how boomy the pups are, backing off the bass does help clear it up)
Bright Switch (Off) to start
Master Presence and Depth, Presence at 6'ish, Depth at 5
Start with MV turned all the way down.
Start with Ch.1 Volume halfway or slightly more
Work the Master Volume up accordingly to effective levels.

The Gain and Ch.Volume kinda work hand in hand, in a weird way. Gain offers volume but also dirt, Ch.Volume offers volume, less grit/compression. Master Volume opens up the pipes to really clear things up, but they don't compress or grit up the tone (until way later when set to nuclear levels) so working with a Channel Volume at midway or slightly past midway, then working the amps MV up from there allows minimal preamp compression, or, "grit". The gain - however - also adds a bit of "sparkle" before it turns to grit....this is that fine balance that only you will figure out. SO much depends on the pups and everything else, it really is a "feel" thing.

But try these settings for some nice cleans. They're the best I can offer as a starting platform to get you where you want to go. If things sound a bit too bell/piano like, flick the bright switch "ON" and roll back the tone on your guitar. If gain drops below 3 on the Channel, don't let it - pull back on the volume pot of your guitar.

Lemme know how this works out.
Unkle Mo
 
And ya.....never mismatch the amp to cab impedance matings. Always equal equal.

Good luck :thumbsup: :rock:
Unkle
 
Ventura":1ucuicgf said:
Any powertube swap will require a re-biasing, so yes, likely best to leave the stock bottles in place for now. I too am a fan of EL34 tubes, but have become more and more a fan of KT77s in all my otherwise EL34 loaded amps. Go figure. If the tubes are labeled with a large red JJ than the likelihood of these being KT77s is 99.9%

I've always preferred lower-moderate output pickups with my Diezel amps. I am unsure as to why, but to my ears, lower-moderate pups just give me the best of all worlds: cleans, means, metal and go-betweens...great feedback both from the amp and from my fingers to the amp. So, knowing you've got some heavier powered pups in your fiddle, we may need to take this into account with the "clean".

VH4 to me has always been more of a piano/bell like clean, as opposed to a crystalline shimmering clean amp - especially at volumes. However, with the kit you have, I'd suggest starting with your guitar controls maxed - as we can work backwards from there by hand. But Ch.1 settings for the VH4?? I don't know *exactly* what you're looking for, but to get a really nice starting "clean" tone try (and this is based on the dial's going 1-10, not "o'clock")
Gain roughtly @ 3-4 (as gain also works as a volume in this case)
Treble around 7
Mids between 4-6
Bass around 6-7 (depends how boomy the pups are, backing off the bass does help clear it up)
Bright Switch (Off) to start
Master Presence and Depth, Presence at 6'ish, Depth at 5
Start with MV turned all the way down.
Start with Ch.1 Volume halfway or slightly more
Work the Master Volume up accordingly to effective levels.

The Gain and Ch.Volume kinda work hand in hand, in a weird way. Gain offers volume but also dirt, Ch.Volume offers volume, less grit/compression. Master Volume opens up the pipes to really clear things up, but they don't compress or grit up the tone (until way later when set to nuclear levels) so working with a Channel Volume at midway or slightly past midway, then working the amps MV up from there allows minimal preamp compression, or, "grit". The gain - however - also adds a bit of "sparkle" before it turns to grit....this is that fine balance that only you will figure out. SO much depends on the pups and everything else, it really is a "feel" thing.

But try these settings for some nice cleans. They're the best I can offer as a starting platform to get you where you want to go. If things sound a bit too bell/piano like, flick the bright switch "ON" and roll back the tone on your guitar. If gain drops below 3 on the Channel, don't let it - pull back on the volume pot of your guitar.

Lemme know how this works out.
Unkle Mo
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. I'll try your settings while tweaking my own. I have my channel 3 rhythm dialed in perfectly. I love medium game for rhythm metal palm muting etc. Sounds soooooo good, and while I don't play blues....channel 2 totally makes me want to! lol

You mentioned the Master volume. How much does the master volume play into tones? I tried various things. Like putting the master volume to like 12 O'clock and then lowering the individual volumes, but then I switched it mostly to channel volumes up and lowered the master volume.

What is your take on how to use the master volume versus the channel volumes and how they work together? Thanks for your in depth knowledge and help!

Here are my current settings:
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dhfS7mQ.jpg
 
Hello!

As per your pics above:
I'd back the bass off a bit on Ch.1, increase the mids just s smidge, and give the treble a good twist to the right (increase).

Master plays a big roll relative to channel volume. I have found with Diezels (amongst other amps, yes), that opening the channel volume up lets that channel breathe better, and then use the MasterVolume as an attenuator, for lack of a better term. When both the MV and CV are down to minimal, everything gets too compressed and fizzy/gainy. So, the powertubes are there to AMPLIFY the preamp signal. If you open the cicuit of the Channel's volume nicely (which you have in your picture), you'll not be pushing down the clean tone signal.

Looks good on the Master Presence and Depth.
And I tend to (ALWAYS!!) EQ my amps direct-in, no FX, nothing, before adding effects. For one, this let's me hear the "true tone" of my guitar+amp+cab signal, untuched. And secondly, it let's me know what the effects "do" to my signal, even if they're off - do they colour the tone? do they weaken the signal? do they create any hum/noise? I always test direct in - make sure all is well - EQ the amp - and then start adding the effects in front and in the loops (if applicable).

Hope this helps :thumbsup:
 
Ventura":w9ou4mk3 said:
Hello!

As per your pics above:
I'd back the bass off a bit on Ch.1, increase the mids just s smidge, and give the treble a good twist to the right (increase).

Master plays a big roll relative to channel volume. I have found with Diezels (amongst other amps, yes), that opening the channel volume up lets that channel breathe better, and then use the MasterVolume as an attenuator, for lack of a better term. When both the MV and CV are down to minimal, everything gets too compressed and fizzy/gainy. So, the powertubes are there to AMPLIFY the preamp signal. If you open the cicuit of the Channel's volume nicely (which you have in your picture), you'll not be pushing down the clean tone signal.

Looks good on the Master Presence and Depth.
And I tend to (ALWAYS!!) EQ my amps direct-in, no FX, nothing, before adding effects. For one, this let's me hear the "true tone" of my guitar+amp+cab signal, untuched. And secondly, it let's me know what the effects "do" to my signal, even if they're off - do they colour the tone? do they weaken the signal? do they create any hum/noise? I always test direct in - make sure all is well - EQ the amp - and then start adding the effects in front and in the loops (if applicable).

Hope this helps :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

It helps a bunch! Messing with the cleans as always today and also the master/channel volumes. They are so finicky. I wish I knew which one is more important to push the tubes. Is it the master or the channel volumes? I see most user videos always have the master very low. Even in Peter Diezel's VH4 in depth video they seemed to have the master very low.
 
"pushing tubes" happens at power-stage/power-tube saturation.

In order to "get there", you need your channel volumes at 3 o'clock (or maxed) and your master volume at around 1 o'clock or higher - depending on the guitars output. This is deafening loud, I don't know of anyone who plays at this level at a gig or jam or studio level. It's fucking ridiculously loud.

I'd written earlier in a differet post, the Diezels sound amazing at all volume levels - but unlike some other amps - they DO NOT need to get into this "maximum output / maximum SPL" territory to shine. No. They are great at "regular operating volumes". They don't necessarily sound great at pip-squeek bedroom levels...even though people can play them like this, that's not what 100W+ heads are for.

You don't need nor likely "want" to push the tubes.

Advice is: keep channel volumes as high as possible, and use your MasterVolume as the main attenuator. This minimizes preamp circuit compression and lets the powertubes simply amplify the signal thereafter.

Good luck.
 
Ventura":2zrmcbjn said:
"pushing tubes" happens at power-stage/power-tube saturation.

In order to "get there", you need your channel volumes at 3 o'clock (or maxed) and your master volume at around 1 o'clock or higher - depending on the guitars output. This is deafening loud, I don't know of anyone who plays at this level at a gig or jam or studio level. It's fucking ridiculously loud.

I'd written earlier in a differet post, the Diezels sound amazing at all volume levels - but unlike some other amps - they DO NOT need to get into this "maximum output / maximum SPL" territory to shine. No. They are great at "regular operating volumes". They don't necessarily sound great at pip-squeek bedroom levels...even though people can play them like this, that's not what 100W+ heads are for.

You don't need nor likely "want" to push the tubes.

Advice is: keep channel volumes as high as possible, and use your MasterVolume as the main attenuator. This minimizes preamp circuit compression and lets the powertubes simply amplify the signal thereafter.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Thanks man! Great advice as always dude. Currently using the channel volumes at around 11-12 O'clock....but wow that Master volume is finicky. One SLIGHT move... and boom....the ceiling comes down from volume. God I love this amp.
 
Yep, that's what 100W heads are for :D :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

And don't forget, Diezels are beautifully sensitive to the guitar controls too. I can usually cop a decent clean on the dirt (Ch.2) of the V or Hagen just by rolling back my guitars vol pot.

Peace & Powerchords :rawk: :rawk: :rawk: :rawk:
 
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