Found a decent price (IMO) for some NOS RCA 12AX7 black and grey plates. Im going to thrown them into V1 and possibly V3. Has anyone had experience with these particular NOS tubes? If yes, what position did you place them in? Thanks in advance. I'll post results once I test them out.
Rebel 30 head giving some NOS 12AX7s
- Thread starter Cotton7
- Start date
Popped a RCA 12AX7A Grey Plate and a Phillips 5751 into the Rebel 30 this afternoon. So here is my current tube set up...
V1 - RCA Grey Plate 12AX7A
V2 - Tung Sol RI High Gain 12AX7
V3 - Tung Sol RI High Gain 12AX7
V4 - Tung Sol RI STD Gain 12AX7
V5 - Phillips 5751
2x Mullard EL84 RIs*
2x Tung Sol 6V6GTs*
*Biased at manufacturer's receommended 40 mVDC
I need to spend some time on it and get a feel for the change. However, this is my first impression. The amp is now DEAD QUIET. I cranked it up to about 2 o'Clock on the volume on both ch 1 and ch2 (with the gain dimed). No noise at all. It is amazingly quiet now.
On the flip side... I lost some of the harmonic content and sustain that I had with all of the Tung Sol high Gain 12AX7s (except the PI which was a balanced Tung Sol 12AX7) loaded in there.
The noise went away but, it took some of the cool sustain and harmonics with it.
I need play with it a bit more. I may end up putting that 5751 in my Mark IV and sticking with the 12AX7 PI.
The RCA Black Plate tubes should be in tomorrow. Looking forward to rolling those into the amp. Ill keep you posted.
Oh, I should say that I enjoy playing hot blues (SRV, etc). However, I also love fusion metal, shred and progressive metal. However, I am going for the HOT blues amp tone with this project.
V1 - RCA Grey Plate 12AX7A
V2 - Tung Sol RI High Gain 12AX7
V3 - Tung Sol RI High Gain 12AX7
V4 - Tung Sol RI STD Gain 12AX7
V5 - Phillips 5751
2x Mullard EL84 RIs*
2x Tung Sol 6V6GTs*
*Biased at manufacturer's receommended 40 mVDC
I need to spend some time on it and get a feel for the change. However, this is my first impression. The amp is now DEAD QUIET. I cranked it up to about 2 o'Clock on the volume on both ch 1 and ch2 (with the gain dimed). No noise at all. It is amazingly quiet now.
On the flip side... I lost some of the harmonic content and sustain that I had with all of the Tung Sol high Gain 12AX7s (except the PI which was a balanced Tung Sol 12AX7) loaded in there.
The noise went away but, it took some of the cool sustain and harmonics with it.
I need play with it a bit more. I may end up putting that 5751 in my Mark IV and sticking with the 12AX7 PI.
The RCA Black Plate tubes should be in tomorrow. Looking forward to rolling those into the amp. Ill keep you posted.
Oh, I should say that I enjoy playing hot blues (SRV, etc). However, I also love fusion metal, shred and progressive metal. However, I am going for the HOT blues amp tone with this project.
Had an opportunity to finally get into the Rebel 30 and really play with it and adjust the tone. All that I can say is WOW. The amp sounds incredible (unless I am running just the 6V6s and I turn the volume up past 2 o'clock on ch 2 only. However, that is another topic.)
Lesson from tonight... Do not underestimate the PI effect on your overall tone! The NOS Phillips 5751 in V5 was the reason why I lost some sustain and some of the harmonics. That type lowered the volume, rolled off all fizzy, buzz distortion and sounded good but, it just doesn't work for me in this amp. I put the balanced Tung Sol 12AX7 back into V5 and then ear nirvana! That RCA 12AX7A grey plate in V1 sounds GREAT and is very full with nice lower mids and layers of harmonics. It is also incredibly quiet. The amp simply sounds incredible and quiet now. I love this set up.
It's a good thing that different tubes have different effects on different amps. I was thinking about how my Boogie Mark IV already oozes with gain with plenty to spare. In fact, I usually cannot dime out the gain and drive pots on the lead channel because it just gets too noisy. Well, I put that Phillips 5751 into the PI of that amp and BAM!!!!! I can dime out the gain on the lead channel now and it is full of sustain and tone for days. I now love the Boogie even more now.
Two great amps that sound even better now with a few strategically placed, premium NOS tubes. Can't wait to try those black plates out tomorrow!
)
Lesson from tonight... Do not underestimate the PI effect on your overall tone! The NOS Phillips 5751 in V5 was the reason why I lost some sustain and some of the harmonics. That type lowered the volume, rolled off all fizzy, buzz distortion and sounded good but, it just doesn't work for me in this amp. I put the balanced Tung Sol 12AX7 back into V5 and then ear nirvana! That RCA 12AX7A grey plate in V1 sounds GREAT and is very full with nice lower mids and layers of harmonics. It is also incredibly quiet. The amp simply sounds incredible and quiet now. I love this set up.
It's a good thing that different tubes have different effects on different amps. I was thinking about how my Boogie Mark IV already oozes with gain with plenty to spare. In fact, I usually cannot dime out the gain and drive pots on the lead channel because it just gets too noisy. Well, I put that Phillips 5751 into the PI of that amp and BAM!!!!! I can dime out the gain on the lead channel now and it is full of sustain and tone for days. I now love the Boogie even more now.
Two great amps that sound even better now with a few strategically placed, premium NOS tubes. Can't wait to try those black plates out tomorrow!
)Recieved 2x RCA black plate 12AX7s today. These are the long plate tubes with the D getter produced in the late 50's. I swapped the grey plate out of V1 with the NOS black plate during my lunch break today. I need to sit down and get a better feel of the tone. However, this my first impression...
Not as quiet as the RCA short grey plate. However, I knew that was probably going to be the case going in. Still very tolerable. The noise is basically the same level as it was before I started swapping tubes.
Tone wise... The black plate is brighter and has more low end. Not as "round" sounding as the grey plate.
Not as quiet as the RCA short grey plate. However, I knew that was probably going to be the case going in. Still very tolerable. The noise is basically the same level as it was before I started swapping tubes.
Tone wise... The black plate is brighter and has more low end. Not as "round" sounding as the grey plate.
While the RCA black plates sound like they have a little more dynamic range than the grey plate, its not enough to justify using them and dealing with the added noise. Looks like I'll be sticking with the following preamp tube setup for a while....
V1 - RCA 12AX7A/ECC83 Short grey plate
V2 - Tung Sol RI high Gain tested at 115/105
V3 - Tung Sol RI high Gain tested at 110/105
V4 - Tung Sol RI high Gain tested at 110/105
V5 - Tung Sol RI balanced tested at 100/100
This setup provided the least noise, best gain, 2nd best dynamic response, best sustain and warmth.
The 2x RCA black plates now reside in my Mark IV in the V1 and V2 spots along with the Phillips 5751 in the V5 PI position. This really warmed up the two rhythm channels on this amp while also adding some low mids.
Two lessons learned from this experiment that I will not forget.... 1. The phase inverter playes a huge role in the overall feel of your amps tone. Choose wisely. 2. If you are shooting for high gain tones, new Tung Sols RIs sound fantastic. So save your money and don't blow it on NOS hype. Now if you are working on a better clean tone, this would be a different story....
That's it for now.
V1 - RCA 12AX7A/ECC83 Short grey plate
V2 - Tung Sol RI high Gain tested at 115/105
V3 - Tung Sol RI high Gain tested at 110/105
V4 - Tung Sol RI high Gain tested at 110/105
V5 - Tung Sol RI balanced tested at 100/100
This setup provided the least noise, best gain, 2nd best dynamic response, best sustain and warmth.
The 2x RCA black plates now reside in my Mark IV in the V1 and V2 spots along with the Phillips 5751 in the V5 PI position. This really warmed up the two rhythm channels on this amp while also adding some low mids.
Two lessons learned from this experiment that I will not forget.... 1. The phase inverter playes a huge role in the overall feel of your amps tone. Choose wisely. 2. If you are shooting for high gain tones, new Tung Sols RIs sound fantastic. So save your money and don't blow it on NOS hype. Now if you are working on a better clean tone, this would be a different story....
That's it for now.
Thanks for sharing your tube selections. I'm sure that setup sounds good. Im a bit OCD about tone (amongst other things). My Rebel 30 sounded great with the stock EH 12AX7s and Ruby power tubes. I just enjoy playing around with the tone to see if I can improve it to my taste (I have a closet full of old and new stomp boxes to prove it). I just have this compulsion to try different tubes.
The crazy part... I've only owned this amp for a little over two months. However, I've put a lot of playing time in on it.
The crazy part... I've only owned this amp for a little over two months. However, I've put a lot of playing time in on it.
Cotton7":q5iozxj7 said:
hehehe well I'm glad there are tube obsessives around like you as it saves me lots of time and I learn from your experiences.
I'm not obsessed in that I know pretty much what tones I want and when I find it with a tube set I'll just stick to it.
Doug from www.dougstubes.com recommended my current R30 tube set and it delivered in spades so have no plans to change
No dont bother with the patch cord,using the effects loop with pedals off may change a impedence or two and the circuit may sound a bit of change as sound goes.
Gain changes per the tubes and drive taste.
I just wonder which tube is the first preamp tube that effects the OD channel,i think v1 tube is the clean channel ?
Gain changes per the tubes and drive taste.
I just wonder which tube is the first preamp tube that effects the OD channel,i think v1 tube is the clean channel ?
Research led me to choose these.
V1 12ax7 Genalex GH
V2 12ax7 TS goldpin
V3 12ax7 ac5 HG Ruby
V4 12ax7 TS gp
V5 12ax7Lps balanced Sovtek phase inverter.
Power tubes are el84 RI Mullard and TS 6v6gt
The phase inverter is key on both rebel amps pushing distortion.
The V5 tube has to pass tone stacks intire electron stream without going to mush,most tubes lose it here.
I was surprized chords lost congestion and notes came out with more realizm.
The long plate takes a huge signal and does make the difference, big difference too.
I tested on the OD channel getting crunch and chords never sounded that good.
I also had a little power tube distortion using a alittle attenuator holding it back.
A wrong choice on V5 PI, can get so compressed it flubs the bottom end too i think.
Perhaps the 12ax7Lps sovtek was designed to be a PI , the plate is huge and tough overall .
Glad i ordered that cheap sovtek tube , The goldpin TS gets tested so they are more pricey but im tired of mediocre tube lots .
V1 12ax7 Genalex GH
V2 12ax7 TS goldpin
V3 12ax7 ac5 HG Ruby
V4 12ax7 TS gp
V5 12ax7Lps balanced Sovtek phase inverter.
Power tubes are el84 RI Mullard and TS 6v6gt
The phase inverter is key on both rebel amps pushing distortion.
The V5 tube has to pass tone stacks intire electron stream without going to mush,most tubes lose it here.
I was surprized chords lost congestion and notes came out with more realizm.
The long plate takes a huge signal and does make the difference, big difference too.
I tested on the OD channel getting crunch and chords never sounded that good.
I also had a little power tube distortion using a alittle attenuator holding it back.
A wrong choice on V5 PI, can get so compressed it flubs the bottom end too i think.
Perhaps the 12ax7Lps sovtek was designed to be a PI , the plate is huge and tough overall .
Glad i ordered that cheap sovtek tube , The goldpin TS gets tested so they are more pricey but im tired of mediocre tube lots .
Thanks for the tube suggestions! I agree with the Sovtek LPS assessment. It sounds great and isn't too expensive to change out every other power tube swap when needed. The PI position is absolutely critical to the overall feel and tone of them amp. A better choice (but a bit more expensive) in my opinion is the Pre-war Ei long grey plates. They extended the range and keep the bass tight. However, the tone change isn't worth dropping an additional $25-50 every time you need a new one and they are no longer made.
I'm still tube rolling. Right now I'm enjoying the following set up....
V1 - NOS Mullard Blackburn Factory 163 code labeled as a 6681/12AX7.
V2 - NOS RCA long black plates with the "D" getter.
V3 - NOS RCA long black plates with the "D" getter.
V4 - Tung Sol RI
V5 - NOS prewar Ei ECC83.
I've done so much tube rolling now that I'm really starting to find where my sweet spot is on this amp. I am definately keeping the NOS Blackplate in V2 and the Ei in V5 till it wears out. I'll probably move back to the Sovtek LPS after that. The Mullard sounds great but is a little boomy. I may move the RCA Blackplate from V3 into V1 and throw a Tung Sol rated at high gain V3. However, I'm just trying play with my guitar into the amp more in stead of playing inside the amp lately. I still haven't decided what I will stick with but, I have decided that I love the NOS RCAs. Consequently, I've acquired enough of them to last me a couple of decades. Still playing around with the Mullard and may check out RFT and an Amprex as well. I'll need to get board with this set up first. That may take a while.
I'm still tube rolling. Right now I'm enjoying the following set up....
V1 - NOS Mullard Blackburn Factory 163 code labeled as a 6681/12AX7.
V2 - NOS RCA long black plates with the "D" getter.
V3 - NOS RCA long black plates with the "D" getter.
V4 - Tung Sol RI
V5 - NOS prewar Ei ECC83.
I've done so much tube rolling now that I'm really starting to find where my sweet spot is on this amp. I am definately keeping the NOS Blackplate in V2 and the Ei in V5 till it wears out. I'll probably move back to the Sovtek LPS after that. The Mullard sounds great but is a little boomy. I may move the RCA Blackplate from V3 into V1 and throw a Tung Sol rated at high gain V3. However, I'm just trying play with my guitar into the amp more in stead of playing inside the amp lately. I still haven't decided what I will stick with but, I have decided that I love the NOS RCAs. Consequently, I've acquired enough of them to last me a couple of decades. Still playing around with the Mullard and may check out RFT and an Amprex as well. I'll need to get board with this set up first. That may take a while.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Cotton7":2ug22trx said:Has anyone tried that theory of placing a higher gain 12ax7 (higher than usual) in v4 in the Rebel 30 and then just running a patch cord between the FX send and FX return? Does that really do something? Just curious. I might try it if I have time over this weekend.
i do exactly that in my tourmaster..and use the fx loop for a built in boost. it works great.
however, the tube im using is just the stock egnater tube that came with the amp. those 12ax7 eggie groove tubes are pretty good tubes....i've been through the whole tube rolling thing..i spent hundreds of hours with my amp chassis on my bench, playing, testing, moving tubes...playing more...etc etc with my tourmaster. im not talking a week or two at bedroom levels either. im talking every night for hours, for months....
rfts and sylvania 6 hole wavy plates sound the best to my ears if you're going VOS/NOS tubes for rock and metal. in the current production tubes, i prefer JJ12ax783s and chinese 12ax7b silver dragons at least for the tourmaster amp and my ears. you can really spend a TON of time chasing tone regarding tube rolling, as you probably already know. theres a ton of info on the web about it too....
read down in the middle ...bruce chimes in
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75155&p=1055268&hilit=12bz7#p1055268
try that 12bz7 in your effects loop. it's higher gain than any 12ax7, and you can get a bump in volume out of it too. worth rolling.
one thing to consider too, you're not going to want to put tung sols in a cathode follower position of any amp..the burn out quickly there. not sure if the rebel has that slot in its tube configuration, but, you might wanna find out.
you're spot on though about the RCA gray plates and any other "knockoff" mullard...they're dead quiet, but a little lacking from tube to tube in the tonal arena...they're pretty sterile to my ears too.
heres a ton of info for you to peruse and obsess over (weird too! almost a year to the day i posted this last year!!!)
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=95579&p=1131789&hilit=grailtone#p1131789
good luck!
dont discount those blackburns either, they're great sounding tubes.
also, the sovtek LPS in the PI is a fantastic tube for overall feel and gain....and the mullard cv4024 cannot be sold short in there also..current production cv4024 are like 20 bux...worth a shot for lower gain applications, more note definition and clarity and a touch more clarity on the top end.
Found a deal on some NOS Mullards, NOS Amprex Bugle Boys and some more NOS RCA long black plates from the 50s. I think I have a problem. . Just a bit OCD on this.
I do love the slight improvement in tone when going NOS over new production. However, what I really notice is a difference in the feel of the amp. The NOS tubes are more harmonically complex and thick. I feel the compression in the notes and love the over tones. Each tube has its own unique signature.
This last purchase should should keep my amps sounding great for next decade. I'm done tube rolling after the next batch.
Of course... There are always power tubes.
. Just a bit OCD on this. I do love the slight improvement in tone when going NOS over new production. However, what I really notice is a difference in the feel of the amp. The NOS tubes are more harmonically complex and thick. I feel the compression in the notes and love the over tones. Each tube has its own unique signature.
This last purchase should should keep my amps sounding great for next decade. I'm done tube rolling after the next batch.
Of course... There are always power tubes.
A
Anonymous
Guest
i think you'll be dissapointed with power tube rolling....the differences just aren't worth the money involved dude....
some ARE better than others, but imho, just not worth the aggravation. not to say i hadn't tried any, and didnt see differences, just small in comparison to even changing 1 PI tube...
1 thing i've noticed with NOS tubes is they seem a little sturdier and less prone to microphonics, at least the ones i have.
regarding power tubes though, yes, there are differences but you'll see better tonal results putting the money into better cables, different speakers, pickups, strings, picks, more preamp tubes, etc.
i think bruce would agree on this with me, as, well, he gave me the same advice a few years ago...and, i shoulda just taken his word for it! lol.
some ARE better than others, but imho, just not worth the aggravation. not to say i hadn't tried any, and didnt see differences, just small in comparison to even changing 1 PI tube...
1 thing i've noticed with NOS tubes is they seem a little sturdier and less prone to microphonics, at least the ones i have.
regarding power tubes though, yes, there are differences but you'll see better tonal results putting the money into better cables, different speakers, pickups, strings, picks, more preamp tubes, etc.
i think bruce would agree on this with me, as, well, he gave me the same advice a few years ago...and, i shoulda just taken his word for it! lol.
Agreed! Thanks for tips. I almost always customize my guitar pickups. I do believe that my money will be better spent on some speakers before dropping cash on power tubes. It feels like I have more money tied up in my rigs than I have sense at times. I have expensive cables, power conditioners, custom pups, etc. I also realize that most of the tone in today's modern amplifiers is derived, for the most part, from the preamp and the transformer. The speakers will certainly have a greater impact than rolling power tunes in a modern amp.
Vintage amps.... A different story perhaps.
Vintage amps.... A different story perhaps.
A
Anonymous
Guest
i came to the conclusion like i said, after MONTHS of time consuming tube rolling. yeah, it was fun..albeit a bit monotonous.
i also did some extensive tube rolling with a THD univalve....i tried ALL KINDS of power tubes in that thing.
strangely enough, i kept going back to 2 power tubes:
the JJel34 that was shipped with it
and an old sylvania coke bottle 6l6 that i just love the sound of. i actually run 2 of them in my tourmaster sometimes. they're super big sounding.
anyways..
have you started rolling tubes in and out of your valvulator
just sayin!
i also did some extensive tube rolling with a THD univalve....i tried ALL KINDS of power tubes in that thing.
strangely enough, i kept going back to 2 power tubes:
the JJel34 that was shipped with it
and an old sylvania coke bottle 6l6 that i just love the sound of. i actually run 2 of them in my tourmaster sometimes. they're super big sounding.
anyways..
have you started rolling tubes in and out of your valvulator
just sayin!