Curious how many guitarists jam and suck at theory?

i'm horrible at voice leading and connecting chords when it comes to theory...i just use my ear. theory helps you put the name to what your doing. for example i was playing ii-V7-!'s before i even knew how to analyze what i was doing. never put theory over feel or technical ability. at the end of the day shredding and playing a solid riff that feels great is the best thing ever!
 
For what it's worth, I learned to play by listening to LP's and learning songs one phrase at a time. I scratched a lot of records and burned out a lot of needles but it worked for me. I developed a great ear for knowing what chords\notes were used just by hearing them. I also learned the neck forward and backward. I learned all the chords from books and learned how to play them in every position (inversion) on the neck. This with no music theory whatsoever and I became a monster guitar player, but it took a looooong time. I could listen to a new song played on the radio and know how to play it in 10-15 minutes due to all the ear training.

Later on in life I felt like I was illiterate in the music world I had become part of. I decided to go and study music at a private conservatory. Boy was I in for a rude awakening! I was one of 12 players auditioning for 4 open spots. They put sheet music in front of me and I was so embarrassed I almost did not audition. I mottled through it the best I could and when I looked up, I saw it was a no go for me. Then I threw the music on the floor and played Steve Howe's "Mood For A Day". I guess it worked because I got a letter accepting me into the school.

So what did grasshopper learn? If you really want to be more than a garage or bar room guitarist and want to take a shot at working in music, theory is something you should know so that you can communicate effectively with other professionals (they don't look at your fingers while you say" Play it like this") as chord progressions, time signatures, Key signatures, tonality, scales and many other aspects of music come into play. Can you go without, sure but would you really want to?
 
SpiderWars":31py82ha said:
Not sure how to explain this but when I try to learn a Django song I'm amazed at all the horrid notes when played slowly and without the phrasing. I'm thinking no fucking way can that be the right note...it is THE worst possible note there. Yet when played to speed and with phrasing that horrid note then becomes the spice that makes it interesting/awesome.

I have no idea how to do that. I guess the saying is true; "There are no bad notes, just bad resolutions."
Like on which tune?!
 
I know practically zero theory, and it's been a personal choice to keep things this way.

This helps maximise the mystery of music for me. Every songwriting session is therefore an exciting journey and I'm far-less likely to repeat myself.

The final ingredient in my approach is to forget what I've done. Convenient and easy, but again, this helps ensure that I don't churn out the same old shit every damned time.

It goes without saying that this approach always guarantees that, "How the Hell did I do that?" response when listening back to finished mixes, be they fresh-from-the-oven or down the track some day. :yes:
 
Yep same ... I know Jack when it comes to theory ....

I would love to take the time to learn but .... Hey ... Im lazy !! Maybe a new guitar will make me improve lol ... GASSSSSSSSSSS
 
New member. First post.

This thread sums me up. 39 years old and have just been playing as a hobby since I was 20. Took a couple years off here and there. Never learned shit, and never play outside of Drop D tuning. Yes. I know. Even the thought of jamming with someone that has 1% more music knowledge than me gives me a panic attack. lol.

Ive honestly been thinking about putting a craigslist ad up to see if anyone in my boat wants to jam....with the goal to maybe learn a few things while we noodle around.

Thoughts, advice, etc appreciated.
 
Quoting the Late, Great Frank Zappa . . . "I'm specialized, I have a working knowledge of the instrument and given a space in time, as well as a relationship with the others I play with, It's me against the forces of nature". That's how I approach improvising, "Jamming" and music in general....

I studied music theory at a private conservatory for several years. I found it small and tedious and felt it closed more creative doors than it opened. I then learned to put my emotions, feelings and energy into my music and that opened the floodgates on my creativity. Some say it came naturally to me and I beg to differ. I spent many years practicing scales and chords 6-10 hours a day in the beginning and learned songs off of records which was priceless ear training.

My bassist who is a theory encyclopedia always points out the strange chords, timings and meters in the songs we write together. I only play what I hear in my head and theory never comes into the picture. I know what my instrument sounds like and how to get the sounds I want from it. I think that's all anyone ever needs IMHO.
 
I play piano also. It is very easy to see music theory on piano. So I translate it to guitar. I have a friend that writes his own stuff and is pretty anti theory. I think that theory will never hold you back, but a lot of musicians are using simple music theory without knowing it in as much as it would be pretty shit to the ears if you don't. I think that you shouldn't be looked down on if you don't use it. But people that use it aren't talentless hack either, lol. This is like the God or no God or Red vs Blue discussion for guitarists..so much emotion. I love learning it, because it is just a "Duh" moment over and over again. Cuz most of it is fairly obvious, you just don't put things together. And a lot of music theory was developed by others that weren't musicians. Pythagorean who was a mathmetician and philosopher (pythogorean theorem a^2 + b^2 = c^2 for finding the hypotenuse of a right triangle is what he is often known for), actually came up with a tuning that we use because of note vibrations on a 3:2 scale which was based on perfect fifths. Most of us use fifths(powerchords) and if you play also fourth string in your powerchords then you are adding the octave. But I think that it is based on and Artist's mind vs an Analytical one. I am much more analytical than artistic. Maybe that is why I like theory. That being said, maybe it is because of me being what i consider a beginner at music theory, every song I write is based on hearing something in my head or accidentally playing something that i like.
 
I have to individually find out each note I want to heae. I can't just mnow which one it is. I mean I can tell what certain scales are by tonality....like I know. Harmonic minor when I hear one...but couldn't tell you which which notes are in a particular key without stopping and thinking about it
 
https://www.justinguitar.com/ is free

Find a guitar teacher who does improvisation lessons while incorporating scales and fretboard memory learning. It takes about a year for brain cells to memorize quite a few Major and Minor scales while also improvisation using fretboard notes that are complimentary. If you spend an hour and a half a day guitar training then you can also do slides, bends, vibrato, and some chords. You will have to incorporate strumming into it or spend a bit more time doing exercises on that also.

That is a many-year mission for a lot of people but it really starts up one year when you make the smart choice to find a credible teacher as a source for your questions while showing you what you need to do. Covid 19 has shown that Zoom calls work for this sort of teaching also.

You can do it.
 
I improvise all of my solos, with very minimal theory. I can grasp/comprehend the theory just fine, but it sounds like crap compared to when I go off the dreaded "feel."
 
Formally trained in classical theory from playing with orchestras, but for some reason it all goes out the window as soon as I pick up a guitar, lol. Too fun to just play.
 
I got back into Greg Howe and some other fusion guys back around 2003 and man oh man did it open my eyes. I could not understand what playing "outside" meant.
I hooked up with a great teacher who laid out playing modally for me and then substitutions and then incorporating whole tone turn arounds etc.
Really changed the way I play (for the better).
If all you're going to play in rock /metal then you really don't need to know that much theory but if you're going to delve into fusion or Jazz you really need to learn some or you'll sound like a complete hack (like I did). Joe Pass has a great REH where he explains there is only Major/Minor and Dominant. That's it. Once you can really grasp that concept theory becomes a little easier to digest. I can't sight read for crap , that is one thing I wish has spent time developing, but it ain't gonna happen now LOL!
Gambale has an REH "Modes mystery no more" that is also a real great resource.
 
My theory knowledge sucks ass. Everything I play is in C, D or E minor. You’d think growing up a MASSIVE Vai/Dream Theater fan, I’d want to take some of their skills and add them to my own but nope!

Thankfully, improv jamming was something my buddies and I did all the time back in high school. We got the first Liquid Tension Experiment album and after learning that those songs were written out of improv jams, it became our way of life. My ear is good enough that I can sit in most jam sessions without sweating. Then if it’s my turn to solo I just keep it really simple and try to rip off Gilmour as much as possible. I know as long as I stay in key, lay into the notes and hold them as long as I can, I can get a lot more mileage out of them!

I’ve tried several times over the years to sit down and memorize scales/modes, but it just doesn’t stick in my head. I’ll retain it for about a week and then it’s gone again.
 
I got back into Greg Howe and some other fusion guys back around 2003 and man oh man did it open my eyes. I could not understand what playing "outside" meant.
I hooked up with a great teacher who laid out playing modally for me and then substitutions and then incorporating whole tone turn arounds etc.
Really changed the way I play (for the better).
If all you're going to play in rock /metal then you really don't need to know that much theory but if you're going to delve into fusion or Jazz you really need to learn some or you'll sound like a complete hack (like I did). Joe Pass has a great REH where he explains there is only Major/Minor and Dominant. That's it. Once you can really grasp that concept theory becomes a little easier to digest. I can't sight read for crap , that is one thing I wish has spent time developing, but it ain't gonna happen now LOL!
Gambale has an REH "Modes mystery no more" that is also a real great resource.
I disagree with your rock/metal statement.

Music theory is descriptive, not prescriptive. Regardless of the genre you play, techniques can be used to generate ideas. It isn't until you realize that learning modes, scales, and patterns confines your playing that you start to find ways to break out of patterns. Jazz found a way to do this by boxing notes, emphasizing tension, and using secondary dominants all over the place. Many composers found ways to substitute out of key chords. If you are telling me that metal musicians don't know theory and intentionally try to break it, you need to listen to better metal composers.
 
I disagree with your rock/metal statement.

Music theory is descriptive, not prescriptive. Regardless of the genre you play, techniques can be used to generate ideas. It isn't until you realize that learning modes, scales, and patterns confines your playing that you start to find ways to break out of patterns. Jazz found a way to do this by boxing notes, emphasizing tension, and using secondary dominants all over the place. Many composers found ways to substitute out of key chords. If you are telling me that metal musicians don't know theory and intentionally try to break it, you need to listen to better metal composers.
that's not what I said at all. but lets be real, I've lost count of how many metal/rock guitarists I've seen interviewed that confess , they know zero theory, there is a generation of players out there right now that seem to embrace learning theory more than in past days but there is no shortage of famous players that don't really know much theory at all.
And I will disagree with you that knowledge confines you in any way. Once I really started to understand how to play modally my palette completely opened up. when I hear guitarists "improvising" and all they know is Pentatonic and the occasional flat 5 "blues" note thrown in playing over dominant chords I know their knowledge is limited.
 
Did me a big surprise, jazz/fusion guy thinks he's superior to the rock/metal guys because "SoMe RoCk pLaYeRs aDmIt tHeY dOnT kNow tHeOrY."

Cringe.
 
Tablature predated musical notation. The 'problem' with Tab was that it was specific to an instrument. Musical notation came about because they needed something that was universal and useable across all instruments (12-tone instruments that is).
 
that's not what I said at all. but lets be real, I've lost count of how many metal/rock guitarists I've seen interviewed that confess , they know zero theory, there is a generation of players out there right now that seem to embrace learning theory more than in past days but there is no shortage of famous players that don't really know much theory at all.
And I will disagree with you that knowledge confines you in any way. Once I really started to understand how to play modally my palette completely opened up. when I hear guitarists "improvising" and all they know is Pentatonic and the occasional flat 5 "blues" note thrown in playing over dominant chords I know their knowledge is limited.
As I said, theory is descriptive, not prescriptive. People can "not know theory" and have an extremely good ear. Look at Dave Grohl as an example. He is a successful musician with no knowledge of theory. He has a great ear and worked with probably one of the greatest voice leading artists of the last 30 years. Even better, Michael Jackson wrote every part of his songs by singing them and had no knowledge of theory, yet music theory can explain his chord progressions and melodies.

In terms of modern metal, if you think people like Jason Richardson, Tosin Abasi, Per Nilsson, etc. Don't know theory, you are just basing your view on you own biases.

The main thing that music thoery gives you is a way to convey ideas to other trained musicians quickly. That can include techniques like "play this scale over the dominant chord". That statement doesn't contain any theory, it contains a description about how to get a certain sound. You don't have to play just that scale. You can play anything else.

If you learned modal playing, you could have just as easily been told to play certain shapes over certain chords (which is how jazz is usually taught, play scale x over this dominant). People doing this usually have no idea why that shape or mode makes any sense over that chord, but they practice it. Same thing for boxing, most jazz musicians have no idea why boxing works, they just learned it as a technique.

I had an interesting conversation a few years ago with one of the best jazz pianists I know. I asked him if he could give me jazz theory lessons and help me understand how he was approaching his lines. He answered: "I don't know theory, I just play what I hear in my head." When you think about it, this is a hallmark of jazz, improvising on the spot. Taking patterns, licks, and shapes, then trying to play them quickly over chord changes. Most of it by definition is unplanned and not based on theory. It is based on practicing lines that other people use without thinking about why it works. Theory can be used to explain why some things work, including the accidentals.

Another way to look at it, the augmented 4th is usually considered dissonant, yet it is used all over the film score industry as a strong chord tone as a Lydian chord. The reason is because it is the second harmonic of a major 7th. So if you play it with a major 7th, it can be explained away as consonant even though blues and jazz musicians would never view it that way. By associating it to a style of music without understand the fundamentals of why it works, theory is restrictive.
 
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