Cabinet Impedance and effect on rolling down guitar volume

scottosan

Well-known member
This is not a straight forward question. I know there has been alot of people that swear that 16 ohm cab sounds different than and 8 ohm cab. But my question isn't just about tone, but rather a different phenomenon. I have the CCV clone and then the single channel clone. The gain channels are 100% identical. I have always felt that the full CCV clone cleaned up better when pickups where split and volume knob rolled down. The full CCV clone uses an 8 ohm cab and the single channel on a 16 ohm cab. I did some testing this morning at low volume to rule out any power amp or speaker distortion, and what I found it that when I switched cabs, the one on the 8 ohm cab cleaned up significantly better and kept a chimey top end. I kept going back and forth for an hour and my finding where consistent. Every time, the amps where set with the correct impedance selector to match the corresponding cab. Thinking perhaps there was something wrong with the 16 ohm cab after this with distorting I thought maybe I had a torn or damaged speaker, so I then decided to try clean on the suspect cabinet and I could get stupid loud on the clean channel with no breakup, so I don't suspect anything wrong with the speakers.

That being said, they are different speaker types in each of the cabs. While I would expect a difference in tone I wouldn't expect a significant difference in how well the guitar cleaned up especially at lower volume. It this point, I am curious if anyone has experienced this or has any idea what might be going on?

Thanks
 
How is the negative feedback loop setup on the amps? Are they both the same? Same resistance, presence pot, depth etc. And what about the PI circuit?
That's the first thing that came to mind.
 
fusedbrain":2wdktk0i said:
How is the negative feedback loop setup on the amps? Are they both the same? Same resistance, presence pot, depth etc. And what about the PI circuit?
That's the first thing that came to mind.
Identical and I am using 1% resistors and 5% caps. The phenomena follows the cab/speaker not the amp. The NFB is set to the 8 ohm tap not the speaker selector, so the NFB voltage should be static. :dunno:
 
Does the guitar have a treble bleed circuit on it? That would go a long way towards making sure highs are kept when turning down its volume knob. I think something is happening on the front end of the amp. Maybe input impedance at the guitar input jack of the amp is changing between the cases you tested, although I can’t explain why.

IIRC, I’m using circuit C from this site. But modified as it mentions later in the thread to use 150K/1nf in parallel. This works really well!
http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5317
 
psychodave":293cwmd0 said:
The different ohm selector is using different windings on the output transformer.

Assuming the output transformer isn't faulty on one tap somehow (and the transformers aren't smaller/"lower headroom"), I don't think this would make the difference since it's actually not much of a difference overall.

Using different output transformer windings (8 ohm versus 16 ohm) may have a slight difference in the sound, but not nearly as much as other factors (and unless the amp is blasting full-out for volume, you might not notice much difference if any).

Trying to test for the difference in the sound of using different output transformer windings (8 ohm versus 16 ohm) alone is actually quite tricky since there are other more significant variables to consider.

Even if the speakers are "the same" model but made as different impedance versions (for instance a Vintage 30 8-ohm speaker versus a Vintage 30 16-ohm speaker), they have different properties due to how they're made differently for those different impedances. Here are some things which differ in speakers of "the same design" but different impedances:

-resonant frequency
-frequency range
-inductance
-sensitivity

Even if those things aren't very different from speaker to speaker, add them all up and you'll find an "8-ohm version" of speaker X sounds different from a "16-ohm version" of speaker X. Given that you have to match impedance to the amp to hear how each speaker actually sounds (mismatch of impedance to the amp means a really noticeable change in the sound and response, so you can't do that), you can't really just properly A/B a single 8-ohm version of "speaker X" with a single 16-ohm speaker of "speaker X" using the same output transformer winding because of that.

Then there's the matter of how the inductance plays into it, which is often overlooked. Simply wiring a 4x12 cab as parallel-series versus series-parallel makes a noticeable difference because of the difference in combined inductances (due to how they're combined differently in series versus parallel). Some consider it a make-or-break difference, just one wire different (sometimes I do too, depending on the cabinet and/or speakers). That's using the exact same speakers, and keeping the impedance the same in the same cabinet. So "16 ohms" can even sound "different from 16 ohms" in the same 4x12. :)

Now consider that wiring different cabs differently in general--series versus parallel--can have an even more noticeable effect than that. So if one cab has two speakers wired in series and the other has two speakers wired in parallel (or a 4x12 cabinet has four speakers in series-parallel compared to a 2x12 wired in series or parallel), it's a bigger difference than you'd hear wiring a 4x12 as parallel-series versus series-parallel.

And if the speakers are different models in general, we can put that at the top of the list of suspects in this case (although I don't think that's what the OP meant).

scottosan:

What you hear "when the amp cleans up" might be related to the specific speaker cabinet having an effect on feedback your guitar is picking up, due to different frequencies the cabinet is projecting. If you notice this difference at low volumes though, I wouldn't suspect this much.

Also: you mention "chimey top end" as part of this. Maybe what you consider "better at cleaning up" is hearing more of that "chimey top end" and less about the speakers really "cleaning up"? It wouldn't be the first time someone associated that aspect of the sound with "a clean tone" (I notice people are more forgiving about a higher gain amp's limited ability to "clean up with the guitar's volume" if there's chimey top end in the sound). That aspect of the sound could be due to the speakers and their differences I mentioned, as well as the cabinet design (differences in resonance due to different wood and more/less of it, different bracing in the cabinet, how tightly it's sealed, if there's damping material inside).
 
JamesPeters":3tukxe2q said:
psychodave":3tukxe2q said:
The different ohm selector is using different windings on the output transformer.

Assuming the output transformer isn't faulty on one tap somehow (and the transformers aren't smaller/"lower headroom"), I don't think this would make the difference since it's actually not much of a difference overall.

Using different output transformer windings (8 ohm versus 16 ohm) may have a slight difference in the sound, but not nearly as much as other factors (and unless the amp is blasting full-out for volume, you might not notice much difference if any).

Trying to test for the difference in the sound of using different output transformer windings (8 ohm versus 16 ohm) alone is actually quite tricky since there are other more significant variables to consider.

Even if the speakers are "the same" model but made as different impedance versions (for instance a Vintage 30 8-ohm speaker versus a Vintage 30 16-ohm speaker), they have different properties due to how they're made differently for those different impedances. Here are some things which differ in speakers of "the same design" but different impedances:

-resonant frequency
-frequency range
-inductance
-sensitivity

Even if those things aren't very different from speaker to speaker, add them all up and you'll find an "8-ohm version" of speaker X sounds different from a "16-ohm version" of speaker X. Given that you have to match impedance to the amp to hear how each speaker actually sounds (mismatch of impedance to the amp means a really noticeable change in the sound and response, so you can't do that), you can't really just properly A/B a single 8-ohm version of "speaker X" with a single 16-ohm speaker of "speaker X" using the same output transformer winding because of that.

Then there's the matter of how the inductance plays into it, which is often overlooked. Simply wiring a 4x12 cab as parallel-series versus series-parallel makes a noticeable difference because of the difference in combined inductances (due to how they're combined differently in series versus parallel). Some consider it a make-or-break difference, just one wire different (sometimes I do too, depending on the cabinet and/or speakers). That's using the exact same speakers, and keeping the impedance the same in the same cabinet. So "16 ohms" can even sound "different from 16 ohms" in the same 4x12. :)

Now consider that wiring different cabs differently in general--series versus parallel--can have an even more noticeable effect than that. So if one cab has two speakers wired in series and the other has two speakers wired in parallel (or a 4x12 cabinet has four speakers in series-parallel compared to a 2x12 wired in series or parallel), it's a bigger difference than you'd hear wiring a 4x12 as parallel-series versus series-parallel.

And if the speakers are different models in general, we can put that at the top of the list of suspects in this case (although I don't think that's what the OP meant).

scottosan:

What you hear "when the amp cleans up" might be related to the specific speaker cabinet having an effect on feedback your guitar is picking up, due to different frequencies the cabinet is projecting. If you notice this difference at low volumes though, I wouldn't suspect this much.

Also: you mention "chimey top end" as part of this. Maybe what you consider "better at cleaning up" is hearing more of that "chimey top end" and less about the speakers really "cleaning up"? It wouldn't be the first time someone associated that aspect of the sound with "a clean tone" (I notice people are more forgiving about a higher gain amp's limited ability to "clean up with the guitar's volume" if there's chimey top end in the sound). That aspect of the sound could be due to the speakers and their differences I mentioned, as well as the cabinet design (differences in resonance due to different wood and more/less of it, different bracing in the cabinet, how tightly it's sealed, if there's damping material inside).
Thanks for the lengthy reply James. Both a 4x12's one is a slant (16 ohm) with G12-65's and not sure how Marshall wired those stock. It's a recently acquired 1979 basketweave Marshall. I have only measured the resistance but didn't pay too much attention to which of the wiring schems used. The other is a straight 8 ohm 4x12 with Vintage 30s bottom and G12H30's top. When I say chimey top end it's not so much the frequency it more clarity and undistorted. The slant G12-65 has the same high end but instead of the high end sounding clean it sounds distorted although it's musically distorted. This is at lowe volumes and literall standing between the 2 amps planing something rolled down and without changing the settings on the guitar mover the guitar cable to the other amps thats already of standby so it's pretty close to an A/B. Swap heads to the other cabinets and again it follows the cab. And as stated, if I switch over the the clean channel, it's clear as a bell at twice the volume. I am suspecting it's the G12-65's perhaps have an enphasis on a frequency band that I'm not getting with the other cab. It's also not going to be related to windings on a certain transformer, as 1 has classictone and the other a Mercury. Everything else the same.
 
scottosan":1hxlwd2m said:
Thanks for the lengthy reply James. Both a 4x12's one is a slant (16 ohm) with G12-65's and not sure how Marshall wired those stock. It's a recently acquired 1979 basketweave Marshall. I have only measured the resistance but didn't pay too much attention to which of the wiring schems used. The other is a straight 8 ohm 4x12 with Vintage 30s bottom and G12H30's top. When I say chimey top end it's not so much the frequency it more clarity and undistorted. The slant G12-65 has the same high end but instead of the high end sounding clean it sounds distorted although it's musically distorted. This is at lowe volumes and literall standing between the 2 amps planing something rolled down and without changing the settings on the guitar mover the guitar cable to the other amps thats already of standby so it's pretty close to an A/B. Swap heads to the other cabinets and again it follows the cab. And as stated, if I switch over the the clean channel, it's clear as a bell at twice the volume. I am suspecting it's the G12-65's perhaps have an enphasis on a frequency band that I'm not getting with the other cab. It's also not going to be related to windings on a certain transformer, as 1 has classictone and the other a Mercury. Everything else the same.

Ok so...different cab designs, different speaker designs (and some might be old/"worn" speakers), wired for different impedance and possibly also wired different (series-parallel or parallel-series). There are a few factors at work. :)

You can try swapping speakers to narrow things down. When it comes to buying old used speakers, I'm always suspicious of their condition. Actually I haven't bought old used speakers in a long time, for that reason.
 
-cool thread-

-I read once that George Lynch much preferred 8 ohm speakers because "they sound clearer" -(his sig CELESTION "LYNCHBACK's" are only available in 8-ohms)-(hmmmmmm)-(just sayin)- Sounds like the kinda BS you hear over at The Geriatric Page-{TGP}- or so I thought. About the same time Scott Spawn -(and other's)- released independent findings on every CELESTION V-30 released up to that point in time,........ Well,.. the spec sheets didn't lie,... every incarnation was voiced differently......chinese & English V-30's different,...... mesa V-30's different,.... Marshall V-30's.... Yup,....... And seems we were right all along,.. every new incarnation of the V-30 has a different & progressively harsher, more pronounced mid spike.... Then add resistance -(ohm)- to the equation...... they're all different,...

-everything matters-
 
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