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 Post subject: Furman: P-1800 AR vs PFR
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 27, 2019 6:46pm 
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For years I've avoided this type of device as I regarded them as just expensive, rack-mount power strips.
But I'd like to try one to see if they actually work.

Seems like the PFR is a power conditioner that is supposed to reduce noise from dirty power?
And the AR is a voltage regulator that is supposed to maintain a constant 120v +/- 5v regardless of mains voltage? But it also has "some" power conditioning/noise reduction?

My priority is noise reduction. But voltage regulation could be nice since my mains runs hot sometimes, like around 125v. And then at night when the power grid gets taxed, it drops down to 120v. BUT... if this thing has a tolerance of +/- 5v is it really gonna do anything?

The noise reduction for each one is listed at:

PFR:
30 dB @ 2kHz
40 dB @ 10kHz
50 dB @ 20kHz
70 DB @ 100KHZ

AR:
10 dB @ 10kHz
40 dB @ 100kHz
50 dB @ 500kHz

Is the PFR really going to reduce line noise better? Seems like the AR filters noise at a higher frequency, but less noise attenuation at 10K - 50K. And the PFR filters down to 2K, but stops at 100K. I have no idea how to interpret this shit lol.

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PostPosted: Wed, Feb 27, 2019 7:15pm 
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I have a P-1800 PF R (Power conditioner with power factor Technology). Basically it provides extra current reserve when needed (for large transients at high volume). I never had noise problems with my rig before but this unit brought my barely perceptible background noise down to pure pitch black silent levels. My amps tone improved too with a more solid feel and slightly enhanced harmonics as well. I AB'd the Furman vs. direct into the wall enough times to prove to myself the unit is legit.

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PostPosted: Wed, Feb 27, 2019 7:42pm 
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thegame wrote:
I have a P-1800 PF R (Power conditioner with power factor Technology). Basically it provides extra current reserve when needed (for large transients at high volume). I never had noise problems with my rig before but this unit brought my barely perceptible background noise down to pure pitch black silent levels. My amps tone improved too with a more solid feel and slightly enhanced harmonics as well. I AB'd the Furman vs. direct into the wall enough times to prove to myself the unit is legit.


Interesting. I wonder if the difference in noise filtering between the AR and PFR is noticeable when it comes to guitar rigs?

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PostPosted: Wed, Feb 27, 2019 7:47pm 
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I wanna know what you find out. Please update this when you get one.

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PostPosted: Wed, Feb 27, 2019 7:48pm 
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I bought both. Will try each one and return whichever one makes the least sense. Hell, I might try running one into the other to get both regulation and conditioning.

I don't know why Furman doesn't offer a unit that does both???

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PostPosted: Wed, Feb 27, 2019 11:26pm 
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FourT6and2 wrote:
I bought both. Will try each one and return whichever one makes the least sense. Hell, I might try running one into the other to get both regulation and conditioning.

I don't know why Furman doesn't offer a unit that does both???

I actually have both units, though, I've never a/b'd them to see if one filtered more noise than the other. If you run them together, Furman recommend to plug the PFR into the wall and the AR into the PFR. They said doing it the other way could cause the PFR to make a clicking sound.


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PostPosted: Wed, Feb 27, 2019 11:29pm 
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fearhk213 wrote:
FourT6and2 wrote:
I bought both. Will try each one and return whichever one makes the least sense. Hell, I might try running one into the other to get both regulation and conditioning.

I don't know why Furman doesn't offer a unit that does both???

I actually have both units, though, I've never a/b'd them to see if one filtered more noise than the other. If you run them together, Furman recommend to plug the PFR into the wall and the AR into the PFR. They said doing it the other way could cause the PFR to make a clicking sound.


Intersting. I would have thought it would be the other way around... you'd want the regulator plugged into the wall and the conditioner plugged into that.

Have you tried it both ways? If not, could you? Also if you can A/B each one separately?

Either way, have you noticed a reduction in noise with either unit? Do they hum on their own from the transformers?

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PostPosted: Thu, Feb 28, 2019 2:06am 
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I have the PFR and never noticed any noise issues improvements. It won’t kill 60hz hum. I was hoping to try a dual conversion ups. But fedex lost if.


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PostPosted: Thu, Feb 28, 2019 6:58am 
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hstlaurent wrote:
I have the PFR and never noticed any noise issues improvements. It won’t kill 60hz hum. I was hoping to try a dual conversion ups. But fedex lost if.


60Hz hum... from heater noise? Or you're getting 60Hz hum on your mains?

60 cycle hum is usually from your guitar pickups, not the amp. If you unplug your guitar from the amp and the hum stops, it's not the amp/power. It's your guitar picking it up. That happens to me since I'm in an apartment building in a busy city. Lots of power lines and WIFI and large transformers everywhere. Plus, it's San Francisco, and there are the overhead cables for the electric busses right outside my window. No 60 cycle hum from the amp itself. But the guitar picks it up.

However in my case, the wiring in my building is like 60 years old. So I'd like to test out these units to see if they actually do anything. Will just return them if they're snake oil.

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PostPosted: Thu, Feb 28, 2019 10:10am 
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I have a P-1800 AR and an older model voltage regulator - the AR-1215. Both work about the same, so you could probably find an older AR-1215 for a lot less and save the $. I always use a voltage regulator with tube gear. I had thought about running the PFR and AR together back when I bought the AR, but didn't feel like spending the extra $ at the time. I'm interested to hear the results.

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PostPosted: Thu, Feb 28, 2019 10:24am 
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this thread got me thinking about adding the PF R again. Found this quote on TGP regarding both...

Quote:
Talked to Furman. AR is plenty for an amp or two or even three. PF-R and an AR together were explained as way overkill. They said if I found sharing my AR with the other members proved to affect my sound, then putting a PF-R in between my amp and the shared AR would be a good idea. For those using the AR for their rig only, no need to go beyond because Furman explained that unit is all you'll ever need with voltage regulation and ample conditioning and protection.

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PostPosted: Thu, Feb 28, 2019 11:03am 
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mhenson42 wrote:
this thread got me thinking about adding the PF R again. Found this quote on TGP regarding both...

Quote:
Talked to Furman. AR is plenty for an amp or two or even three. PF-R and an AR together were explained as way overkill. They said if I found sharing my AR with the other members proved to affect my sound, then putting a PF-R in between my amp and the shared AR would be a good idea. For those using the AR for their rig only, no need to go beyond because Furman explained that unit is all you'll ever need with voltage regulation and ample conditioning and protection.


Interesting. One person says Furman said they could put the PF-R into the AR. Another person here says Furman told them not to and do it the other way around lol.

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PostPosted: Thu, Feb 28, 2019 12:10pm 
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FourT6and2 wrote:
hstlaurent wrote:
I have the PFR and never noticed any noise issues improvements. It won’t kill 60hz hum. I was hoping to try a dual conversion ups. But fedex lost if.


60Hz hum... from heater noise? Or you're getting 60Hz hum on your mains?

60 cycle hum is usually from your guitar pickups, not the amp. If you unplug your guitar from the amp and the hum stops, it's not the amp/power. It's your guitar picking it up. That happens to me since I'm in an apartment building in a busy city. Lots of power lines and WIFI and large transformers everywhere. Plus, it's San Francisco, and there are the overhead cables for the electric busses right outside my window. No 60 cycle hum from the amp itself. But the guitar picks it up.

However in my case, the wiring in my building is like 60 years old. So I'd like to test out these units to see if they actually do anything. Will just return them if they're snake oil.


At this point, I suspect the main. But I’m not 100% sure yet. I hear the problem with multiple amps, without having any guitar plugged in. But, I haven’t try to plug them in another outlet yet. The problem also comes and go. So maybe it’s related to another appliance that generate noise or something.

I used to live in a condo. And I noticed than when my freezer would start, I would hear a loud click on my speakers if I played on the computer or guitar at the same time. Which is basically why I bought the pfr in the first place. But it didn’t help. Now that I have moved and ditched the freezer, it’s no longer an issue.


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PostPosted: Thu, Feb 28, 2019 5:12pm 
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fearhk213 wrote:
FourT6and2 wrote:
I bought both. Will try each one and return whichever one makes the least sense. Hell, I might try running one into the other to get both regulation and conditioning.

I don't know why Furman doesn't offer a unit that does both???

I actually have both units, though, I've never a/b'd them to see if one filtered more noise than the other. If you run them together, Furman recommend to plug the PFR into the wall and the AR into the PFR. They said doing it the other way could cause the PFR to make a clicking sound.


I have both the PFPro and AR-15 and run them this way as well. The PFPro was the one I bought first. I was having all sorts of issues with noise with my Randall Warhead rig many, many moons ago. Despite running a BOSS NS-2 I still had static noise, pops and clicks from appliances turning on/off in the house & even from people just turning on light switches. I e-mailed Furman to see what they would recommend and that was the PFPro. It was a very noticeable difference after I got it. All that static and the pops/clicks I suffered through were gone. One of the best pieces of gear I ever purchased besides the ISP Decimator Pro Rack G. After I got my Rivera I purchased an AR-15 to have the consistent voltage.

I honestly though have never A/B'd them. They've always been run together. There's a lot of overlap between them with the Lift, SMP, etc. but they each have their purpose to me. PFPro for the Clean Power Tech and the Current reserve, and the AR-15 for the consistent 120VDC (+/-). If I HAD to only have one though, I'd probably go for the AR-15.

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PostPosted: Thu, Feb 28, 2019 11:52pm 
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FourT6and2 wrote:
fearhk213 wrote:
FourT6and2 wrote:
I bought both. Will try each one and return whichever one makes the least sense. Hell, I might try running one into the other to get both regulation and conditioning.

I don't know why Furman doesn't offer a unit that does both???

I actually have both units, though, I've never a/b'd them to see if one filtered more noise than the other. If you run them together, Furman recommend to plug the PFR into the wall and the AR into the PFR. They said doing it the other way could cause the PFR to make a clicking sound.


Intersting. I would have thought it would be the other way around... you'd want the regulator plugged into the wall and the conditioner plugged into that.

Have you tried it both ways? If not, could you? Also if you can A/B each one separately?

Either way, have you noticed a reduction in noise with either unit? Do they hum on their own from the transformers?

I have not tried it both ways. I also thought the regulator first would be the correct way, but from what I was told the PFR is basically a big capacitor and furman said that may cause the unit to start making a clicking noise drawing it’s power from the regulator. I don’t know enough about that kind of stuff to have an opinion about what they said, but I read it in a few other spots when I was researching it and since it was recommended to do it that way from furman I just rolled with it.

I’ll try and a/b separately tomorrow and see if one does more than the other.


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PostPosted: Wed, Mar 06, 2019 3:41pm 
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UPDATE:

Yes, Awesome news!

Both Furman units just arrived. And a Strymon isolated pedal power supply arrived the other day. With just amp plugged into power outlet, there is not much noise except when the amp's volume is off. Once you bring up the master and it starts to engage, the noise goes away and you just hear the amp hiss. Ok, fine. I can live with that. But once you use the FX Loop, all hell breaks loose and the amp picks up radio stations if the pedal in the loop is battery powered. But the radio noise is fairly low. Touching anything grounded to the amp (pedal enclosure, barrel of fx loop cable, etc.) the noise goes away. Moving the pedal around changes the intensity of the radio station noise.

Powering a pedal (any pedal) via a wall wart causes loud ground loop hum and the radio stations get much louder. This is with amp's volume on or off.

The Strymon pedal supply fixed the ground loop problem and no more hum with pedals in the loop. But there is still radio station noise with the amp volume off. With the amp volume engaged at all, the radio stations go away. But touching anything grounded brings radio station noise in.

Enter the Furman stuff:

I first tried just the PFR conditioner. Reduced a bit of the noise with the FX loop or without the loop. Nice.
Tried just the AR regulator. Some of the noise reduced but not as much as with the PFR.
Tried the amp and pedal supply into the AR, into the PFR, to the wall. No change. Still a bit of noise and more of it than with jus the PFR alone.

Tried the amp and pedal supply into the PFR, into the AR, into the wall. There we go! All noise is gone. No noise when amp volume off. No noise with amp volume on. No noise without loop. No noise with loop. No radio. No buzz. No hum. Touching any part of the system or moving things around does not cause any noise! This is the way to go.

Also, with the AR into the wall, it's regulating the mains voltage. And then the PFR plugged into that filters out more noise and now the displays show incoming mains and outgoing voltage to the amp. But with just the AR, all you get is incoming mains, not what it puts out to the amp. Same with just the PFR. This way you know exactly what voltage your amp is seeing and you get the quietest and most isolated power for everything plugged in since the PFR has isolated high-current banks for the amp(s) and isolated banks for a digital power supply like the Strymon.

I've never had an amp this quiet before. It's a shame it takes this much gear to get there, though. Two Furman units and an isolated pedal supply. Now I need to get a small 2-3 space rack to put it all in.

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PostPosted: Wed, Mar 06, 2019 3:49pm 
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Also I don't know why Furman doesn't offer one unit that does both regulation and conditioning. It would have two displays. One that shows incoming mains voltage and the other shows outgoing regulated/conditioned voltage.

If I had to choose just one to use, it would be the PFR, as voltage regulation on the AR isn't precise enough to matter if your voltage doesn't fluctuate more than +/- 5v and the PFR seems to filter noise better.

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PostPosted: Wed, Mar 06, 2019 9:50pm 
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FourT6and2 wrote:
UPDATE:

Yes, Awesome news!

Both Furman units just arrived. And a Strymon isolated pedal power supply arrived the other day. With just amp plugged into power outlet, there is not much noise except when the amp's volume is off. Once you bring up the master and it starts to engage, the noise goes away and you just hear the amp hiss. Ok, fine. I can live with that. But once you use the FX Loop, all hell breaks loose and the amp picks up radio stations if the pedal in the loop is battery powered. But the radio noise is fairly low. Touching anything grounded to the amp (pedal enclosure, barrel of fx loop cable, etc.) the noise goes away. Moving the pedal around changes the intensity of the radio station noise.

Powering a pedal (any pedal) via a wall wart causes loud ground loop hum and the radio stations get much louder. This is with amp's volume on or off.

The Strymon pedal supply fixed the ground loop problem and no more hum with pedals in the loop. But there is still radio station noise with the amp volume off. With the amp volume engaged at all, the radio stations go away. But touching anything grounded brings radio station noise in.

Enter the Furman stuff:

I first tried just the PFR conditioner. Reduced a bit of the noise with the FX loop or without the loop. Nice.
Tried just the AR regulator. Some of the noise reduced but not as much as with the PFR.
Tried the amp and pedal supply into the AR, into the PFR, to the wall. No change. Still a bit of noise and more of it than with jus the PFR alone.

Tried the amp and pedal supply into the PFR, into the AR, into the wall. There we go! All noise is gone. No noise when amp volume off. No noise with amp volume on. No noise without loop. No noise with loop. No radio. No buzz. No hum. Touching any part of the system or moving things around does not cause any noise! This is the way to go.

Also, with the AR into the wall, it's regulating the mains voltage. And then the PFR plugged into that filters out more noise and now the displays show incoming mains and outgoing voltage to the amp. But with just the AR, all you get is incoming mains, not what it puts out to the amp. Same with just the PFR. This way you know exactly what voltage your amp is seeing and you get the quietest and most isolated power for everything plugged in since the PFR has isolated high-current banks for the amp(s) and isolated banks for a digital power supply like the Strymon.

I've never had an amp this quiet before. It's a shame it takes this much gear to get there, though. Two Furman units and an isolated pedal supply. Now I need to get a small 2-3 space rack to put it all in.

I forgot to a/b, but I did just a short while ago. On my end, there was no difference with the noise filtering comparing one to the other. However, I’ll be darned if it didn’t sound better going outlet-AR-PFR-amp vs outlet-PFR-AR-amp. That was unexpected. I compared a couple of times to make sure it wasn’t in my head, but it sounded a little more crisp and focused and felt a hair more immediate. I don’t know why the difference was there since I had the AR plugged into the PFR’s high current outlet, but for some reason there’s a difference having the amp directly into the PFR. Also, there was no clicking noise like the furman guy said. Makes me want to reach out to see if their recommendation has changed because it sounds better doing the opposite of what they told me lol.


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PostPosted: Wed, Mar 06, 2019 11:12pm 
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fearhk213 wrote:
I forgot to a/b, but I did just a short while ago. On my end, there was no difference with the noise filtering comparing one to the other. However, I’ll be darned if it didn’t sound better going outlet-AR-PFR-amp vs outlet-PFR-AR-amp. That was unexpected. I compared a couple of times to make sure it wasn’t in my head, but it sounded a little more crisp and focused and felt a hair more immediate. I don’t know why the difference was there since I had the AR plugged into the PFR’s high current outlet, but for some reason there’s a difference having the amp directly into the PFR. Also, there was no clicking noise like the furman guy said. Makes me want to reach out to see if their recommendation has changed because it sounds better doing the opposite of what they told me lol.


The noise I'm talking about is mostly related to pedals in the fx loop. The amp's noise floor on its own seems to be the same with either unit. When I run it: Outlet -> AR -> PFR -> Amp, the noise floor (with the loop) is much lower than with the AR and PFR swapped.

It's a pain in the ass though because you have to rebias the amp specifically for whichever method you use! This is because the amp will see a different voltage depending on how you run the Furmans. I took notes for each scenario and my amp's plate voltage varied from 510v down to 488v depending on how you set it up.

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PostPosted: Wed, Mar 06, 2019 11:25pm 
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PostPosted: Wed, Apr 17, 2019 10:11am 
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FourT6and2 - did you end up keeping both?

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