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PostPosted: Sat, Nov 09, 2019 6:13pm 
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I've tried all of the different IR plugins and a bunch of IR's, even professional ones... and I've tweaked in all directions possible every component in Wall of Sound... the result is always the same: the gtrs actually sound WORSE after. They're tighter than if it were just the amp with no cab, but then they're muddier, muffled, and I've tried all the post processing to correct that, only coming to worse results.

And then...I go to YouTube and aaaaall these guys (and there are tons) managed these killer, real sounding, deep, quality guitar sounds, supposedly with the same things I have at my disposal.
What the hell is going on here, and I've spent so much time locked up in the lab for hours and hours... I NEED HELP. PLEASE !!!!.. :D


Last edited by Dork Lard on Sun, Nov 10, 2019 7:15am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat, Nov 09, 2019 7:13pm 
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It's hard to help you if you don't post specific details about your setup and sound clips.


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PostPosted: Sun, Nov 10, 2019 8:08am 
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therealdjabthrash wrote:
It's hard to help you if you don't post specific details about your setup and sound clips.

apologies.

My setup is guitar -> 5150 II amp -> Two Notes Captor loadbox (with gtr speaker sim on) -> behringer soundcard into DAW.

The raw sound out of the amp is great (but incomplete w/o a cab sim) - but as I add Wall of Sound (all amp/mic/settings combinations imaginable) or any IR, the sound thickens and worsens, gets muddy and chubby and inaccurate, and it's nothing like what I'll hear in YT video demos - despite my post processing efforts with EQ's and stuff.

Here I've uploaded this:
https://soundcloud.com/phenomenon86/two ... al-test-x3

- First is gtrs through 5150 amp through Two Notes Captor WITH Wall of Sound
- Second is gtrs through 5150 amp through Two Notes Captor WITHOUT Wall of Sound
- Third is another example of gtrs through 5150 amp through Two Notes Captor WITH Wall of Sound


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PostPosted: Sun, Nov 10, 2019 9:30am 
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@dork lard : just to be sure :
- the captor loadbox is placed after the speaker ouput of your 5150 right ?
- the captor loadbox out (with speaker sim on) goes to your interface, and then you add wall of sound ((poweramp sim maybe ?) + cabsim) in your DAW ?

If so, no wonder it sounds bad, because you have 2 speaker sims (and maybe 2 power amps as well, if you use the one in WOS also) in a row in your signal chain.

You should use only :
- one poweramp (the one from your amp if you use the captor, so you need to disable the one in WOS)
- one cabsim (preferrably the one in WOS because it's better and you have more options (compared to the one in the Captor), so you must disable the cabsim from the Captor)


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PostPosted: Sun, Nov 10, 2019 9:40am 
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therealdjabthrash wrote:
@dork lard : just to be sure :
- the captor loadbox is placed after the speaker ouput of your 5150 right ?
- the captor loadbox out (with speaker sim on) goes to your interface, and then you add wall of sound ((poweramp sim maybe ?) + cabsim) in your DAW ?


If so, no wonder it sounds bad, because you have 2 speaker sims (and maybe 2 power amps as well, if you use the one in WOS also) in a row in your signal chain.

You should use only :
- one poweramp (the one from your amp if you use the captor, so you need to disable the one in WOS)
- one cabsim (preferrably the one in WOS because it's better and you have more options (compared to the one in the Captor), so you must disable the cabsim from the Captor)

Yes those are correct. I figured turning on the speaker sim on the Captor loadbox would sculpt the sound a bit more but as I'm writing this I think you may be right.
I turn off the power amps on WOS.
Sometimes just talking out loud makes you realize what the problem is ! Thx for this suggestion, I'll give it a try w/o the Captor speaker sim and get back to you.


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PostPosted: Mon, Nov 11, 2019 11:33am 
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Alright check these out:
https://soundcloud.com/phenomenon86/tes ... nd-12-gtrs

These are three different mixes of the same part. Different EQ's and different WOS cab combinations (the free ones). Keep in mind all 3 are mastered. The second one has 12 GTRs playing at the same time (hence the depth in sound).

But they still sound fairly flat. What am I missing ? How are those guys on YouTube getting that bigger/more real-sounding tone ? I feel like I'm not getting all the potential out of that 5150.


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PostPosted: Mon, Nov 11, 2019 7:29pm 
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Post unmastered/guitar-only clips please.

And 12 guitars playing at the same time... Overkill if not super detrimental to the tone actually...

Try getting a good tone with only 2 guitars (1 on each side) for starters...


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PostPosted: Mon, Nov 11, 2019 10:14pm 
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therealdjabthrash wrote:
Post unmastered/guitar-only clips please.

And 12 guitars playing at the same time... Overkill if not super detrimental to the tone actually...

Try getting a good tone with only 2 guitars (1 on each side) for starters...

thx for the reply. I'm obsessing over this, I just can't figure it out...
Here:
https://soundcloud.com/phenomenon86/cab ... bias-fx-ii

- First: Wall of Sound RectoOver Left and BrownyBack Right
- Second: BIAS FX II Thrasher Cab
- Third: 2 different Mesa Boogie IR loaded
- Fourth: Whole Mix IR + BIAS.
- Fifth: Whole Mix IR + BIAS, MASTERED.

See, I just want my guitars to sound like this on their own w/o having to rely on an amazing mix around them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SFUx5oShfU 0:35.

Is that so much to ask when I've got a 5150 II ? Are cab sims really just horrific and am I condemned to buy an actual cab ? How are some people getting decent tones on IR's and cab sims like Two Notes WOS, what am I missing here ?


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PostPosted: Tue, Nov 12, 2019 12:07pm 
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If I'm reading things right you need to turn the cab Sim on the captor off and no power amp in wos. You are doubling the cab eq and power amp which will sound terrible. The 5150 provides both pre and power amp wos does speaker ir.


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PostPosted: Tue, Nov 12, 2019 1:42pm 
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@dork lard : your 5150 is fine, ampsims are fine, IR's/Two notes stuff are fine.

It's really in your playing and the way you tweak your signal chain.

You need to go back to the basics.

For instance, the Joey Sturgis example you posted is a downstroke palm-muted single note riff, which has nothing to do with the single note drony riff you played in your example, so it's not the right choice to compare those 2. It's like saying "i want my ice cream to taste like coconut, juts like in this fried chicken cooking video".
By the way, the tone in the Sturgis video is great, but it's nothing special, it's 95% about the guitar performance really.

If you can't make a great guitar sound with a simple riff and a simple decent signal chain (which you have), it has to do with your ears/how you tweak your tone and how you play the guitar. No secret-sauce IR will solve that.


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PostPosted: Tue, Nov 12, 2019 1:46pm 
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Dork Lard wrote:
- First: Wall of Sound RectoOver Left and BrownyBack Right
- Second: BIAS FX II Thrasher Cab
- Third: 2 different Mesa Boogie IR loaded
- Fourth: Whole Mix IR + BIAS.
- Fifth: Whole Mix IR + BIAS, MASTERED.


First : decent tone but completely unbalanced between left and right guitar

Second : sounds completely weird EQ-wise

Third : Same as first, but the other way around

Fourth : Guitars and bass are completely out of tune... WTF !!!

Fifth : same but overhyped mix, due to "mastering"

You have a listening environment problem, or an hearing problem, and need to work on that before blaming your 5150 or your IRs and Torpedos, which are just fine.

Your clips and your description make me think that you've seen videos but you don't really understand what's going on and you're imitating things you've seen randomly.
You need to understand the basics and do simple things first.


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PostPosted: Tue, Nov 12, 2019 6:27pm 
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Pbfoot wrote:
If I'm reading things right you need to turn the cab Sim on the captor off and no power amp in wos. You are doubling the cab eq and power amp which will sound terrible. The 5150 provides both pre and power amp wos does speaker ir.

Indeed I am doing that. Thanks for the reply.

therealdjabthrash wrote:
@dork lard : your 5150 is fine, ampsims are fine, IR's/Two notes stuff are fine.

It's really in your playing and the way you tweak your signal chain.

You need to go back to the basics.

For instance, the Joey Sturgis example you posted is a downstroke palm-muted single note riff, which has nothing to do with the single note drony riff you played in your example, so it's not the right choice to compare those 2. It's like saying "i want my ice cream to taste like coconut, juts like in this fried chicken cooking video".
By the way, the tone in the Sturgis video is great, but it's nothing special, it's 95% about the guitar performance really.

If you can't make a great guitar sound with a simple riff and a simple decent signal chain (which you have), it has to do with your ears/how you tweak your tone and how you play the guitar. No secret-sauce IR will solve that.

Well I recorded the riff in a hurry to be honest the riff and performance don't matter it's the tone and its capacity for improvement and ceiling I'm looking at.

So in your opinion the cab sims are fine and those are not the limitations, rather I'm just EQ'ing wrong ? That would solve my problem I suppose. I'd accept that happily. But look: I'm bothered overall by the sort of "guitar playing in a box" tone that I get no matter how hard I tweak the EQ's. It's like the guitars just won't ever BREATHE, you know ? I'll tweak and tweak, and change cabs and mics and EQ's and quad track and 6-track then just duo-track... and it's still... those flat, boxy 2 dimensional gtrs. Then I play any YT video and the gtrs just sound...normal. They sound dynamic, alive...just hot. Mine are cold. Don't sound real.
What do you say to that ? Am I utilizing WOS wrong, not finding the right EQ spot, not finding the right cab combinations...or are all those just limited in the end and I should look at other options like maybe add a pedal or get an actual cab ?
Thank you for your replies, they mean a lot to me.


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PostPosted: Wed, Nov 13, 2019 1:40pm 
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@dork lard : you need to approach this in a very pragmatic manner, by doing the following tests :

1) get really good guitar DIs from really good guitar players (the Killswitch Engage "rose of sharyn" cover ones, some Ola Englund/Feared ones, etc, that you can find easily on the internet), and try to make them sound great with your chain
-> if you don't make them sound great this way, the way you tweak your signal chain is the issue

2) if you reach a good tone with good guitar DIs from other players with Test 1) (see above), then try to make a good tone with a similar chain but with your own guitar and playing this time (you 'll need to adjust your signal chain settings a bit compared to the ones on TEST 1, but nothing too crazy)
-> if you don't make a great sound great this way, your playing/what comes out of your guitar is the issue
p.s : you'd be amazed at how choice of guitar picks and guitar technique (the way you attack with your pick) can change your guitar tone


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PostPosted: Thu, Nov 14, 2019 7:26pm 
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therealdjabthrash wrote:
@dork lard : you need to approach this in a very pragmatic manner, by doing the following tests :

1) get really good guitar DIs from really good guitar players (the Killswitch Engage "rose of sharyn" cover ones, some Ola Englund/Feared ones, etc, that you can find easily on the internet), and try to make them sound great with your chain
-> if you don't make them sound great this way, the way you tweak your signal chain is the issue

2) if you reach a good tone with good guitar DIs from other players with Test 1) (see above), then try to make a good tone with a similar chain but with your own guitar and playing this time (you 'll need to adjust your signal chain settings a bit compared to the ones on TEST 1, but nothing too crazy)
-> if you don't make a great sound great this way, your playing/what comes out of your guitar is the issue
p.s : you'd be amazed at how choice of guitar picks and guitar technique (the way you attack with your pick) can change your guitar tone

I think I understand this correctly, and it would be a good idea indeed but I'm sure part of the pb is my post-processing, but I'd argue it's not the whole problem.

Take a listen to this if ya like:
https://soundcloud.com/phenomenon86/515 ... s-cab-sims

First part is all 4 GTRs on High Gain on 5150.
Second, the riff, is 2 GTRs High Gain, 2 GTRs on crunch (less gain) channel.

I bought 27€ worth of Two Notes cab sims and am using a couple of the dedicated metal ones (Angl VintC and the Eddie one). I followed step by step this comprehensive guide https://urm.academy/mixing-secrets-volume-4-guitars/
On the frequency part (Part 5), I not only used the Fab Filter precision Q2 to sculpt the EQ right, to make sure I sculpted thoroughly I then also used Waves C4 multiband parametric processor for each of those frequencies so as to tighten that sound even more:
pls click image https://i.imgur.com/j9fniGc.png


You can tell me I can slightly enhance the sound, pick a slightly better cab combination or better mic's on WOS, or slightly better IR's on the first GTR tracks, that I could play the riffs a bit tighter, change the pick I use... but I say something is missing.

Is reamping a solution ? Will it improve the sound ? Is it possible my behringer UMC202HD soundcard is messing up the sound ? Should I add some pedal in the chain there ? Or try low gain recording techniques ? Because sth here is simply not right, it still sounds boxy/2dimensional and mediocre.


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PostPosted: Fri, Nov 15, 2019 3:22am 
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if I may put my 2 cents here, I have listened to the different soundclounds clips you posted @dorklard, and the issue here is you have scooped the mids too much. So you lose all weight in the sound. Once you put snare and cymbals, your guitars will be out of the picture. You have a lot of attack and of "grind" (too much 2k to 4k happening) and also a tad too much high ends. Darken your guitars, be careful on the 600-1k region, and make sure you have enough energy in the 200 region. And guitars on its own rarely sounds great. it is the overall mix that counts. All in all, each instrument will have to fill a space, and leave space for the others. If you put a ton of low end in your guitars (100-200 hz), they will lose the fight against the bass and the kick. Or worse you will not hear kick or bass correctly. If you put too much top ends on your guitars, you will be messing with the cymbals, the snap of the snare and the sss of the vocal track.


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PostPosted: Fri, Nov 15, 2019 7:23am 
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@dork lard : stick to using 2 guitar tracks instead of 4 for now, and also post a clip that has NO post processing

If your sound is messed up (it is : it sounds like we're listening through a pipe or something), you have to reduce the variables, make your signal chain as simple as possible, and start from there.

You should be able to get a great sound with only 2 guitars and no post-processing.

It seems to me that even if you got a great guitar sound in the first place, you might have ruined it by overdoing post-processing (and by applying a recipe you've seen online to your own material, without listening to your material first and seen if what it needed).


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PostPosted: Mon, Nov 18, 2019 12:09pm 
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guys thanks again for the help, I really appreciate it but I've figured out randomly some setting problem on the Behringer USB interface and tweaked the Peavey amp a bit and now it sounds a bit more normal.
To make it more interesting for you if you like I'll work on a song and post it here when it's done and you guys can let me know what you think might be missing in the GTR tone.


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PostPosted: Mon, Nov 18, 2019 12:11pm 
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@dork lard : alright !
Good to hear !


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PostPosted: Wed, Nov 20, 2019 12:56pm 
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So it's a bit strange. I just discovered two plugins that transformed this whole endeavor for me in the past two days.

I learned about Big Cat's Destructor, check it out please it'll certainly help at least one instrument in your mix.

And then, more importantly: Line 6's Helix Native. Aaaaaaaaaaaand....it sounds better than my 5150 II. Yeah, it does.

https://soundcloud.com/phenomenon86/tes ... tharsis-ir
ALL NEEDED INFO IN THE DESCRIPTION.

The drums can use quite a bit of work, not fully done mixing or mastering, and it already sounds noticeably better than anything I've posted so far.
I'm actually considering selling the 5150 amp.


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PostPosted: Wed, Dec 04, 2019 1:36pm 
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I think the pickups on the 8 string were a big part of the issue. These were recorded on my 7 string (Seymour Duncans):

https://soundcloud.com/phenomenon86/7-s ... etal-tests


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