VonBonfire
Well-known member
That's why I subscribe to eastern orthodoxy. They never needed reform at all. God will preserve it unconquerable forever. ICXC
In the Newspaper today: COVID Vaccines saved thousands of lives in Australia
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Thumbpicker
Well-known member
Well certainly the Catholic Church did. There is only one high priest and that's Jesus. You don't need a priest as intercessor. You don't deify Mary or Saints and pray to them either. You pray to God through Jesus and his atoning sacrifice. There is no infallible Pope that should make things up as they go along until the religion is unrecognisable from the Bible's teachings.
VonBonfire
Well-known member
A priest isn't an intercessor in orthodoxy. He simply acts as a witness to your confession. But yeah in Catholicism it seems to me you confess TO the priest. Maybe someone can correct me on that. I think there are big differences between pre Vatican 2 catholicism and what you have today.
The mother of God is higher than the angels. More honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, who without corruption gave birth to God the Word.
You don't pray to saints, you ask them for intercessory prayers since they are alive in Christ and in heaven with him. If you are angry at me about something, I might talk to your mother or a close personal friend of yours because that person will hold a special place in your heart and perhaps will convince you to change your mind where otherwise you might not. It's a shame the way they have discarded the very mother of Christ in protestantism.
Agreed. The desire for political power, and a pope overseeing it are a root cause of the break between the Roman Catholics and the orthodox church in 1054.
Floyd Eye
Well-known member
75% of them supported the October 7th cowardly attack on women and children. NOT IDF, innocent civilians. So yeah, at least 75% of them are terrorists. Most of them just lack the balls to the deed themselves.Like 2.3M Palestinians are “Terrorists”?
Fuck the “ Palestinians”
Floyd Eye
Well-known member
Newspapers huh ?
acceptance
Well-known member
I've heard estimates as low as 100 civilians on the 7th. All the atrocity hoaxes have been proven wrong or remain unsubstantiated. You watch to much tv bro. It was a military attack by Hamas and Israel killed most of the Israeli civilians that day with tanks and hellfire missiles. They freak out because they were bested and killed their own and start making up stories. Totally pathetic.
acceptance
Well-known member
And if you lived in the open air concentration camp that is Gaza you'd be doing the exact same thing.
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
Biblical sources confirming this please.
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
Why hasn't Hamas said sorry it won't happen again, returned the hostages and pleaded for mercy and said "we want to live forever as your neighbours in friendship and peace please forgive us". I bet if they truly did that it would all stop. However they won't do it will they because they hate Israel and they have always wanted to destroy it.
I'll tell you if they said something like that my attitude would change if it was done with sincerity.
Now all this about my attitude not being "Christian". A Christian's attitude must always be willing to forgive the jury is out on having to grant forgiveness before someone has apologised for what they have done. You must be always ready to forgive. God does not forgive us if we aren't sorry and refuse to repent either.
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Thumbpicker
Well-known member
This is I believe is correct regarding Christian forgiveness.
https://biblicalcounseling.com/reso...i-forgive-someone-whos-not-sorry-they-sinned/
VonBonfire
Well-known member
The sola scriptura stuff is only part of the story. Even scripture confirms this:
2 Thessalonians
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I commend you for remembering me in everything and for maintaining the traditions, just as I passed them on to you.
I mean, we are talking about the mother of Christ, not some random woman. She was the very hand maiden of the Lord. Do you love your mother? Imagine Christ's love for his mother. I actually spent last year reading a big old book on the Theotokos, which means the god bearer, the virgin Mary. This one:
https://www.amazon.com/Life-Virgin-Mary-Theotokos/dp/0944359035
I think you would find it a very eye opening read. It's fully referenced and a book worth keeping in your collection.
VonBonfire
Well-known member
How does this hold water though? Only forgive if someone has asked? How many sins have we committed that we have not remembered to ask the Lord to forgive us for? MANY.
In orthodoxy it is simple. If you haven't forgiven someone who has sinned against you, then you will not be forgiven. The parable of the unforgiving servant, whose great debt is forgiven by his master but who turns around and demands full payment from another servant who owes him. It's the same concept as loving those who do not love you.
Matthew 18 23-34
23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[b] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[c] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
It's all explained with the appropriate verses in the link.
Consider the following verse... "and if he sins against you and returns to you... ... saying I repent - forgive him.
Luke 17:3-4 where Jesus also says, “Be on your guard if your brother sins rebuke him and if he repents forgive him and if he sins against you seven times a day and returns to you seven times a day saying I repent forgive him.”
We are not held to a higher standard than God. God does not forgive us if we don't say sorry and repent. God is however always willing to forgive us if we do that. We are to be more like Jesus/God.
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Thumbpicker
Well-known member
This I don't think is good enough. It's not a tradition in the Bible and it's not my tradition. Mary had an important role but she is not to be worshipped. She is not God.
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
This. IMHO.
Even a saint is still a human sinner and should not be worshipped a la the Catholics.
Same goes for sports / actor heroes peeps post pics of on their bedroom walls these days. No man is, nor can he be, God.
VonBonfire
Well-known member
I read the link. Which BTW is a woman teaching, also a violation of scripture, for starters.
".....Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us" (not as we forgive those who ask us to be forgiven)
Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Matthew 18:35
That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Mark 11:26
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
Your brother is your Christian brother. None of this is contradictory to not having to forgive until you you are asked for forgiveness. You should be willing to forgive and have an attitude in accordance with that. You do not have to forgive if the person is unrepentant and not sorry. If the person is repentant and sorry you must forgive and show mercy. This is what God does for us as well although he is not compelled of course. It is only through God’s grace we are forgiven through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. We are not forgiven if we do not acknowledge our own sinfulness and repent.
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
These are all standardized Christian beliefs set via ecumenical councils, nearly 1700 years ago. The holy trinity, the virgin mary, the nicene creed, water baptism, We are back to modern protestantism picking and choosing as it suits them. Saying orthodox worship the virgin mary is misguided.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_council
We reverence the virgin, and the saints, not worship them, so it's a mistake to say that. The protestant teachers say that icons equal idolatry but this too was settled belief 1300 years ago with the iconoclasts, who attempted to destroy them all, and failed, but martyred many christians in the process.
Is a picture of your mother or brother on your wall idolatry? It would fit the scriptural basis you are using to condemn icons of the saints. If I visited your home and took the picture and smashed it, or pissed on it, or stuck a piece of gun on it, or drew on it, you would be offended because that picture, while not your actual mother or brother etc is a representation of that person. no good argument against the icons that wouldn't also condemn you for having family photos on the wall. Do you worship them? Obviously not. Neither do we. They are something that calls to mind our mother brother, or our holy mother, or saints. We reverence them "honor or respect shown" and request their intercessory prayers because they are alive in Christ, and with him in heaven.
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Thumbpicker
Well-known member
I don’t have a problem with any of that until you get to intercessory prayer part.
I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except by me. John 14:6
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
As i explained earlier, the saints are in heaven, alive in Christ, with Christ, therefore nearer to him than we are. So we can request intercessory prayer.
Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.
How about the below passages where the dead pray for the living:
Luke 16 19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.