Vh4 Channel 4 Question

[jake5150]

Hi,

Just wondering, does anyone here use channel 4 for rhythm playing? I find channel 3 quite stiff and lacking in gain. It's probably partly due to the fact I've been using a lot of modeling (Pods into power amps, Vetta etc) for the past 10 years, or possibly I need a re-valve. I have been thinking recently that maybe I should've gone for a Herbert.

Anyway, just curious to see if anyone else uses channel 4 as their main sound?

 

[Joeytpg]

you gave yourself the answer, modeling units for far too long. Your ear is fried.

But no worries, same thing happened to me when I switched from modelers to my first tube amp (a Mesa boogie F-50). Just stick with it and don't try to make it sound like what your ear is used to (a modeler).

Ask for some common settings on channel 3 and 4 (don't use too much gain, I even suggest staying around noon and let you ear get used to DYNAMICS which is something modelers of the past REALLY lacked of.

after a while if you really stick to it, your ear will learn to appreciate the true sound of tubes.

cheers.

 

[JoshXR]

Matt Bellamy of Muse likes Channel 4 over Channel 3...

I find that Channel 3 is tighter, and you can easily saturate it by turning the gain up a little bit. For my guitar, a low output humbucking PRS, 5 gain is "tight", and 7-8 is starting with the heavy saturation, but still fairly tight.

I only need 4 gain on channel 4, haha. Turning down the gain a bit can really increase the quality of sound, especially on recording. My motto is to keep the gain as low as possible while still maintaining the feel (palm mute, pinch harmonics) that I need. The VH4 sounds and feels a lot different on 4 gain than it does on 8. Palm mutes have more "thowmp" with more gain, but too much and it just sounds messy.

All these numbers really depend on the guitar and its pickups. 4 gain might be screaming on an Ibanez, but is pretty tame on my PRS.

 

[cardinal]

Depends on what type of rhythm I'm playing. But I tend to have the tone controls near noon, tweaked slightly depending on the room and my mood. But the gain knobs are pretty consistent: noon for channel 3 and about 10:30 for channel 4. That's a whole lot of gain on both channels, but channel 4 is more saturated and definitely feels different. If channel 3 feels too stiff for you, try dropping the mids back a touch to see if that helps.

If you like really saturated gain, that explains your preference for channel 4, but nothing wrong with that. If it sounds good to you and you're enjoying it, play rhythm on channel 4. No reason to worry about it.

 

[racerevlon]

Yes, this is actually what I do--Channel 4 with lower gain for rhythms, channel 3 for leads. Works well.

 

[Ventura]

I use the 3rd channel a lot on the VH4, but also turn back the gain and use 4th as an interesting flavor. FWIW, the 4th channel on the Hagen is an incredible channel that's perfect for crunch to ridiculous.

Get back to retraining your ear with a true head and cab. I don't think I've ever heard someone say that the VH4 lacks gain. Ever.

Peace,
Uncle Mo

 

[MARK2C]

Matt Bellamy of Muse likes Channel 4 over Channel 3...

I find that Channel 3 is tighter, and you can easily saturate it by turning the gain up a little bit. For my guitar, a low output humbucking PRS, 5 gain is "tight", and 7-8 is starting with the heavy saturation, but still fairly tight.

I only need 4 gain on channel 4, haha. Turning down the gain a bit can really increase the quality of sound, especially on recording. My motto is to keep the gain as low as possible while still maintaining the feel (palm mute, pinch harmonics) that I need. The VH4 sounds and feels a lot different on 4 gain than it does on 8. Palm mutes have more "thowmp" with more gain, but too much and it just sounds messy.

All these numbers really depend on the guitar and its pickups. 4 gain might be screaming on an Ibanez, but is pretty tame on my PRS.

On a post 2007 these setting are almost max gain settings. Pre 2006/2005 they are more accurate. Back in the late 90's a VH4's channel 3 would need the gain a 7-8 o'clock to really burn, but to many it could have used just one more notch of gain. Today, a VH4 has as much gain at 1:30 as the vintage amps had at maximum settings. Pickups of course do factor in, on the VH4 anything below 10K is great, but 8-9K is a sweet spot. To my ears the VH4 Ch.3 has never been stiff per se, but it's tight. Ch. 4 has always been liquid smooth, but with alternate settings the compression can make it seem a bit looser.

 

[MARK2C]

I use the 3rd channel a lot on the VH4, but also turn back the gain and use 4th as an interesting flavor. FWIW, the 4th channel on the Hagen is an incredible channel that's perfect for crunch to ridiculous.

Get back to retraining your ear with a true head and cab. I don't think I've ever heard someone say that the VH4 lacks gain. Ever.

Peace,
Uncle Mo

Agreed Uncle Mo, but to the OP the VH4 is not as forgiving as a Herbert or modeling amp.
Like the SLO-100, it's an unforgiving amp unless you smear the hell out of the gain. Ch. 4 is much more forgiving though as the natural compression smooths out the flubs. Judging the Ch. 3 gain comment it may be that the amp is a pre 2005 VH4 and Ch. 3 was a real players channel where you could coax tones from pick attack and the volume pot. When I went from a 2005 to a 2007 I used the same old setting ala 1999,2000,2003 and 2005. Imagine my surprise. I had a sparkling clean channel, a ton more gain on Ch. 2, Mega feedback on 3 and 4 until I lowered the gain way back. As much as I loved the old channel 3, I'm not going back to what I have now. Incrementally better across the board.

 

[kahawe]

on the VH4 anything below 10K is great, but 8-9K is a sweet spot.

Might be a bit offtopic but could you elaborate on that please? Because I read this on here before and been wondering. What changes over 10k and why is the sweet spot for the vh4 at around 8-9k? Is this just personal preference (lower output = wider, less focused/compressed?) or has something to do with that specific amp? (for simplicity, let's leave aside that Ohms aren't actually a measurement for pickups output)

 

[Ventura]

on the VH4 anything below 10K is great, but 8-9K is a sweet spot.

Might be a bit offtopic but could you elaborate on that please? Because I read this on here before and been wondering. What changes over 10k and why is the sweet spot for the vh4 at around 8-9k? Is this just personal preference (lower output = wider, less focused/compressed?) or has something to do with that specific amp? (for simplicity, let's leave aside that Ohms aren't actually a measurement for pickups output)

My limited knowledge on the topic is that most if not all the amps Diezel makes, most certainly the VH4, reacts and responds best to this level of pickup. They don't like high output pups, but again, someone using MMs or EMGs or the like may prefer it - it's just not the way Peter "tuned" to the amp. The preamp section was tuned using Peter in-house guitars, most of which are equipped with his preference of pickup - and these are indeed lower output pups. By utilizing a lower output pup, there is less compression and the signal gets truly 'worked' by the preamp section of the amp's circuit - allowing the circuit to do exactly what it's meant to do whilst maintaining the dynamics, tone, overtones, and bloom of the notes/strings being played. Hitting the front end with a sledgehammer pickup doesn't complement the preamp section as well as a more modest, lower output pup. Definition can be compromised, things can get compressed and prematurely distorted, etc.

Just my 2 lowly cents.

 

[kahawe]

Thanks for the reply, that's interesting. I can see how the vh4 really shines there as it is the most "analytical" of the Diezels IMHO... so the wider tone range of lower-output pickups should really bloom there and bring it to life. Then again, hitting it with a Nailbomb or Aftermath is going to give you a very focused, instant modern "br00tz" which some players probably love nevertheless; I think the other Peter is a big fan of BKP's nailbombs and maybe even painkillers?


But ultimately, I think that craze for ultra-high-output pups is probably uncalled for nowadays anyway and especially with amps like Diezels which got all the gain you could ever want right on tap...

 

[JoshXR]

Matt Bellamy of Muse likes Channel 4 over Channel 3...

I find that Channel 3 is tighter, and you can easily saturate it by turning the gain up a little bit. For my guitar, a low output humbucking PRS, 5 gain is "tight", and 7-8 is starting with the heavy saturation, but still fairly tight.

I only need 4 gain on channel 4, haha. Turning down the gain a bit can really increase the quality of sound, especially on recording. My motto is to keep the gain as low as possible while still maintaining the feel (palm mute, pinch harmonics) that I need. The VH4 sounds and feels a lot different on 4 gain than it does on 8. Palm mutes have more "thowmp" with more gain, but too much and it just sounds messy.

All these numbers really depend on the guitar and its pickups. 4 gain might be screaming on an Ibanez, but is pretty tame on my PRS.

On a post 2007 these setting are almost max gain settings. Pre 2006/2005 they are more accurate. Back in the late 90's a VH4's channel 3 would need the gain a 7-8 o'clock to really burn, but to many it could have used just one more notch of gain. Today, a VH4 has as much gain at 1:30 as the vintage amps had at maximum settings. Pickups of course do factor in, on the VH4 anything below 10K is great, but 8-9K is a sweet spot. To my ears the VH4 Ch.3 has never been stiff per se, but it's tight. Ch. 4 has always been liquid smooth, but with alternate settings the compression can make it seem a bit looser.

I am running a 2010 VH4

 

[MARK2C]

on the VH4 anything below 10K is great, but 8-9K is a sweet spot.

Might be a bit offtopic but could you elaborate on that please? Because I read this on here before and been wondering. What changes over 10k and why is the sweet spot for the vh4 at around 8-9k? Is this just personal preference (lower output = wider, less focused/compressed?) or has something to do with that specific amp? (for simplicity, let's leave aside that Ohms aren't actually a measurement for pickups output)

How many pickup manufacturers post the output other than DiMarzio ?
Duncan thinks guitar players are so dumb they use a picture of fire to denote hot !!!

It's a good layman's term that a 8-9K won't have an output of 500mV.
Adversely, some 23K pickups have limited output like the HS3. Basically a good
Gibson PAF, 57 Classic, Fralin (Even crappy old Ibanez HB's sound superb through the VH4) etc won't push your VH4 like a Duncan Invader, EMG, Tone Zone, Miracle Man etc.
Pre-2007 VH4's were very particular on pickup output. A 57 Classic in a Les Paul on Ch. 3 was THE defining tone to me for years either running a 99 VH4 with 6L6's and a 2000 VH4 with EL-34. The post 2007 VH4 has more than enough sweep in gain to keep the attack of even a higher output pickup wheras an older VH4 was either too compressed or just lost too much push to stay dynamic. Now, there is a reason that the VH4 manual states the amp may not react that well to EMG's, I like to feel it was me pestering Peter as in 99' and 00' I have six or seven guitars with EMG's and just could not for the life of me get them to work on the VH4. Alas, with age comes wisdom. For the 2007 VH4 I decided to limit the preamp signal through the serial loop to lower the preamp to power amp signal. Either active or passive, it really allows you to tame hot preamp/guitar pickups and brings back the full tonal spectrum and decreases the typical compression.

As for the sweet spot, to me it's where the amp plays easy with not too much or too little gain and the harmonics bounce off. Also, where the amp can go from legato to alternate picking without gobs of gain and just feels organic.

 

[Ventura]

But ultimately, I think that craze for ultra-high-output pups is probably uncalled for nowadays anyway and especially with amps like Diezels which got all the gain you could ever want right on tap...

Nail on head.

And looking at things somewhat panoramically, globally, let's look at what's really happening here... Nowadays the interwebz everywhere, and everyone is on it. Years ago, nobody really took notice to pickup output, cable capacitance, tone woods, or the like. It was "buy a guitar and play it". But with the net, now everyone can be an armchair expert on any matter at all. So, in order to drive the buying process, the marketing machine, the profit margins, pickup manufacturers have - basically - only 2 directions to go. Left, lower output / right, higher output. I am quite certain having just left well enough alone, the pups we were using/are using would be fine. But to stimulate sales, it's always gotta be something BIGGER and BETTER, right? So the manufacturers start showing the scowling faces of beefed up, long haired nordic men with tattoos, and describe their latest signature pickups to have the highest output eavvaaaar!!

And, like most of everyone, we all get caught up in it. The pendulum slowly swings back, and next thing we know everyone's racing to get the lower output pups because they work better with today's* amps. Great niche to be in, too - as they're not too expensive to buy into and swap around - and they're not throw away cheap. Buyers feel as though they've invested in themselves as serious musicians, serious, about their craft.

Uncle Mo

* And of course, this "today's amps" bit subconsciously determines the reader/target audience as being perhaps somewhat less endowed, and therefore, starts the GAS pains all over again... New gear, new customization, new trinkets, less time playing, more time buying, yada yada yada. Ever checked out what you can buy if you're a GOLFER!?!?! Seriously, the vendors have got that shit DOWN!!! I mean, everything from $0.25 practice balls right up to $1000 drivers. And every - every - pricepoint in between. They know the mind, "buy something, it makes you feel better", so they put product out there at every increment of dollar value. Slap it on the net and whaddya know, instant commerce...

 

[BERNI]

i think that we flip out a little....if you like the 4 channel, go for it! the 3 channel is awesome, but, also the 4 and the 2 and 1....its a incredible amp...so use whatever your ears need.