Waiting is driving me nuts...Tour Master

[Len Rabinowitz]

I know what you mean also. More broadly then just the amp, I have never quite gotten any recording I have ever made to sound quite right to me, and certainly they have never sounded quite like I hear them in my head.

 

[Anonymous]

there-in my friends lies the problem.

too many options, too many sounds floating around, and not enough hands or time to grab em all!

tone greed!

 

[ripsix]

Ok, got to play with my 4100 a bit in rehearsals and on one gig and noticed a few things... the "perceived" loudness "issue" was mostly me. Put it with a 4x12 cab and applied enough gain and channel volume and had plenty of headroom. Even running half-power with all but CL1 on 10watts at our last gig I was perceived as "too loud" by the lead singer/guitarist...
Like yeti has mentioned the OD channels don't really start to shine (at least for the tones I like) until about 1:00 to 2:00 and OD2 and I definitely speak the same language! I can dial that channel in for tones I like real well and could from the beginning. It's the closest I've come to that "heavy" tone I've heard in my head for the last 30 years or so... Thanks Bruce!!!! And after corresponding with Bruce (and I'm stilled stunned he answers emails, promptly even, from regular guys like me) I am able to use an EQ to really push that low end into some unbelievable areas. Which is kinda interesting, and cool, because the amp really is strong in the low end to begin with, I find I can dial it from sloppy to tight pretty easily. The depth control really works and I find it's fantastic to dial in just the right amount of tightness for the low end at any volume... wonderful feature.
I'm starting to get OD1 dialed in a bit better, it's very "Marshall-y" and I'm not necessarily a fan of those mid-range harmonics at least in my current "perception of tone" (even though I own and love a JCM800 that I purchased new in '82).
CL1 is really nice, I can get some real nice sounds out of that with every guitar I own and it's very versatile and I can dial in everything from "clinical" clean to a wonderful clean that has some "depth and warmth". To this point my LP with the pickup selector in the middle position with this channel is just amazing!
Then to CL2, to this point I just can't get it dialed in without a tubescreamer. I'm thinking I want more grit out of it than it's designed for. I can get it close but then I seem to lose "balance" with the other channels. But like I said, a tubescreamer fixes it right up.
I'm starting to come around to the contour controls and the modern/classic switches. At low volumes/gain I initially seemed to like the classic setting only and I thought the contour compressed or squashed the tone too much.. sort of "deadened" it as did the modern switch. However, as has been stated by others, once you "open" this amp up a bit and play it at "volume" then the amp comes alive. All the nuances of the modern and contour start to blossom and can really start to explore the tone of this amp.
The one thing that I feel is missing is a solo boost like the Mesa. I've found that with the modern switch on and the OD channels gain engaged past 10:00 then a clean boost such as the MXR Micro Amp, Boss GE-7 equalizer or even a tubescreamer have virtually no effect. No boost at all especially with OD2. CL channels both respond fine. However borrowing from yeti's post on using the effects loop, I've found that I can use that or what I've done is put my boost pedal there (along with my "time changin" effects) and it then boosts the OD channels fine, however seems to have less to no affect on the CL channels (which is fine for CL1 as I almost never have to boost my cleanest channel anyway).

So all in all, I think she's a keeper (well, for me every decent piece of gear is anyway. I never get rid of any good guitar gear! )! Great versatility in just about every sense of an amp and exactly what I was looking for (well almost... my views on tone seem to change with time...) to replace my pedal driven overdrive/gain sounds. I'm extremely pleased (for now) and am impressed with the Egnater especially since I'd never really heard much about them or considered them in the past and the fact that the owner of the company is not too busy to get down in the mud with his customers and work with them. With all that said, from what I can tell to this point, an Armageddon may need to be added to the arsenal too.

Sorry for the long dissertation, just wanted to follow up on my previous posts and share my initial experiences with my TM and Egnater in general.

Enjoy!,
Mark

 

[Anonymous]

glad to hear you got her dialed in mark. it takes a bit, but worth the time for sure.
i haven't used an eq in the loop yet, i use one before the amp to boost to the mid range i like to hear.

 

[ripsix]

Hey there yeti! Yep it definitely appears to be worth the time. It's growing on me the more I play her.

I've tried the EQ in the loop and in front and I find that I like it in front better. if I scoop out with 400hz being the lower "peak" of the scoop (as per Bruce's recommendation) and play a bit with OD2's bass in conjunction with the density control I can get some real sick bottom end... thunderous and window rattling without question. Just make sure you have the speakers to handle it!

So are you still on the fence about your TM or do you plan to keep her?

 

[Anonymous]

keeping.
til i trade it!!!

 

[rizla]

@ripsix,
Glad your'e getting it sorted.

I used mine today for the 1st time in a band/jam/rehearsal situation and I have to say it sounded pretty much as I expected. Good.
Ch2/cl2 is the channel that has me scratching my head as to what Im going to do with it. Not enough gain, or not enough to differentiate it from cl1. Almost like I could live with either cl1 or cl2 and a od and not need the other cl.
I also got to hear the TM while some one else was playing through it. It sounded great.
We were playing RHCP, Green Day, Blink, Foo's etc. Everything easily achievable with this amp. Thumbs up from the drummer and other guitarist. Therein lies the problem. The other guitarist wants to use it or buy a TM himself now. I dont want two of the same amp on stage.It can be tricky carving out your own spot anyway. Maybe worse with same amps and cabs. I dont want to use my Mesa LSC and pedals but he wants to have a TM4100 as well after hearing and playing through it. Bit of a dilemma of sorts even though it is a big thumbs up for the TM4100.
Still havnt figured out what delay pedal works best in the loop but have to admit I was pretty happy not to even use one today for the stuff we were working through. But I guess I will have to sort out what Im going to have in the loop sooner than later.
A humble Boss GE-7 in the loop works fine for a solo boost for me.
I have the cl1,2 set to classic and od1,2 set to modern. I dont use the contour controls.

Cheers

Edit:
Back to CL2. In the situation I need the amp for the CL2 may not be so useful to me but in a more blues based low gain situation I think that channel would be very useful. It may be the channel I set the other channels around. Might never be in a situation to see if thats right though.

 

[Len Rabinowitz]

Channel 2 absolutely RIPS for old style blues/rock and roll stuff! I set the gain up to about 2 o'clock, plug in my 335, and go!

 

[rizla]

Channel 2 absolutely RIPS for old style blues/rock and roll stuff! I set the gain up to about 2 o'clock, plug in my 335, and go!

Thanks for the confirmation. I even pictured using a 335 in the scenario I was describing

 

[bruce egnater]

Since channels 1 and 2 are very much alike aside from the gain difference, why not use the contour and other controls to get a totally different sound on one channel? Using the contour on with humbucking pickups can give a really nice, prisitine clean (almost acoustic) tone by removing the inherent midrange in the HB pickups.

 

[Anonymous]

bruces description is exactly what i do. channel 1 sounds great on mine....ch2, i use for those early zepp/heavier, gritty blues/country jangle tones.

my power section REALLY differentiates those two channels from each other too, so dont forget about that.

 

[Len Rabinowitz]

Definitely use the capabilities of the amp. They are there for a reason! I still use the suggested settings in the manual. I like a lot of them- You might want to try them out.

Bruce's suggestion has helped me with my 2 humbucker 2 single coil channels idea. I would have said the 1 and 2 were totally different, but I guess I can't argue with Bruce!

 

[rizla]

Since channels 1 and 2 are very much alike aside from the gain difference, why not use the contour and other controls to get a totally different sound on one channel? Using the contour on with humbucking pickups can give a really nice, prisitine clean (almost acoustic) tone by removing the inherent midrange in the HB pickups.

Definitely use the capabilities of the amp. They are there for a reason! I still use the suggested settings in the manual. I like a lot of them- You might want to try them out.

Bruce's suggestion has helped me with my 2 humbucker 2 single coil channels idea. I would have said the 1 and 2 were totally different, but I guess I can't argue with Bruce!

Its not really an issue. Just because I might not use it in this situation doesnt mean I wont use it in another. I wasnt discounting its use out right. Just in this bands situation. I also do some more classic rock, blues gigs where that channel might be just the thing and I find myself wondering what to do with ch4/od2 and ch1/cl1. Its alright . It will all be there when I need/want it.

On a side note, the other guitarist came into work today asking where he can get a TM4100.
We've both had different Mesa's, Marshalls at different times while working together, and hes had a couple of Hughes and Kettners. We both instantly bonded with the TM4100. Just the versatility, ease of use, and ease of dialing in good usable sounds. No stomps needed.

 

[Len Rabinowitz]

The Tourmaster is the unsung hero. I still think it the best of the imported line, and believe me the Tweaker, Rebel, and Renegade provide stiff competition!

 

[rizla]

Think somewhere in this thread I said I wasnt really much into swapping out tubes and expecting big results. So Im going to eat a little humble pie right now.
I had a microphonic tube in v2. But swapped v1 and v3 before I got to v2. Each swap did quieten or affect the sound in some way. For the better. I swapped with what ever I had. spax12ax7's, standard Mesa 12ax7's and EH12ax7's. I swapped out v1,2,3,4 and v8.
At each position swap I had a quick play through all the channels to see if there was a difference and in most cases there was some slight change in response or sound. Not as much as going between any of the cabs I have. That is a real difference in overall tone. Not something you have to listen hard for. Immediate and obvious. But there was a change in quality of sound with each tube swap I made.
It got me thinking about a fender amp I had that came with GT's also. I let a friend use it for a few months and when it came back all the GT's were in a paper bag and there positions filled with other tubes. I never thought much about it other than maybe it was the guys way of repaying me for the use of the amp. But I really did like the amp after getting it back where as I could take or leave it before I gave it to the guy to use.
The TM really has benefited from this little tube swap even if the main result has been to quieten down some of the hiss and noise on the overdrive channels. Maybe Im just not a groove tubes kind of guy
Im going to try a set of 6l6's just to see satisfy my own curiosity. Probably Mesa, I have a few spare.

Still loving the TM. Great amp.

Thanks

 

[rizla]

quick review so far. Ive only mucked around with it for a couple of hours.

Channel 1: Great clean channel. Loves strats and single coils. Hum buckers sound great also. Bright and punchy. Good solid feel to it. I prefer the classic mode and have spent most of my time there. It immediately grabbed my attention.

Channel 2: Still playing with this channel. Its the least obvious of the 4. Its not hard to find good sounds in it. Just slightly harder to figure out what gain level I want it set at compared to the others and what songs I would use it for.

Channel 3: Yahoo... This is a fun channel in either mode. I love it. Gain dialed down and a strat is great. Gain dialed up with a Les Paul is a big slab of goofy yehaa. Its a bit tighter than I thought it was going to be after reading some review's. Tight enough for me anyway.

Channel 4: I'm guessing I will use this as a solo channel of ch3. I'm sure there are other ways to use it though.

I seem to like the classic mode on all four channels. I dont at this point have to much use for the contour button and dial. Its there, I will probably use it at some stage.
The amp seems to want to be played at reasonable levels. It would be a frustrating amp to own if you could only use it at polite conversational levels. Its sweet spots fall in line with the levels created by a stick hitting a snare. This suits my needs.
I like the reverb. I just use a touch. It sounds good on this amp.
I spent a little time with the power options. Its quite useful but I will leave it all on 100w. I like 100w.
Cant fault it yet. Its fun getting to know it. Its not hard to get a good sound out of it.
Today I ran it at the same time as my Mesa LS. That was pretty awesome. Big. Smile inducing. Love to do a gig with that combination.
I checked the bias it was down around 102mv so I played around with it for a while and settled on 130 for now. Adjusting it made quite a difference. Not as ratty sounding. Bigger? more open?
Anyway, annoyed I had to wait so long but happy its here and glad I like it.
The weight(60lb's) doesn't bother me. Cant see the big deal. Grow a set.
I will update the review as I go. This is only first impressions.

Just an update after 3 1/2 months.
Still loving it. Still dont use the contour switches and contour dials. I'm just as likely to use channel 1 or two as a clean channel. I use channel 1 and 2 in classic mode and 3 and 4 in modern. Pretty much dime the main volume and set each channels volume and gain to suit the occasion. Still dont use the power grid. Its set to 100w on every slider. Its a loud amp. Any half arsed quiet volume tweak at a guitar store will not give the right impression. If you read a review where some one states that they tried one at a guitar store and didn't like it, disregard that review. Its worthless. Try one for yourself at a level where the stick hits the snare.
No reliability issues so far other than a noisy preamp tube.
I like to run this head through my Mesa horizontal 212. Other cabs I have work fine but this combination works really well.

Cheers

 

[Len Rabinowitz]

I still find mine really enjoyable to work with. I think the Tourmaster is the ultimate Tweaker! You should use the contour controls and the power grid. A lot of flexibility there.

I was curious about one thing. On the Tourmaster, the power grid is more of a subtle tone control. It doesn't really affect the volume output much.

When I was playing a Mesa Transatlantic, I was switiching it from 5 to 15 to 25 watts and really heard a difference. 25 watts was a lot louder.

Why do you think that difference happens? What is the design difference?

 

[rizla]

I still find mine really enjoyable to work with. I think the Tourmaster is the ultimate Tweaker! You should use the contour controls and the power grid. A lot of flexibility there.

I was curious about one thing. On the Tourmaster, the power grid is more of a subtle tone control. It doesn't really affect the volume output much.

When I was playing a Mesa Transatlantic, I was switiching it from 5 to 15 to 25 watts and really heard a difference. 25 watts was a lot louder.

Why do you think that difference happens? What is the design difference?

Len,
I was tweaking the TM side by side with a Modern Vintage and JCM Slash trying to cop some of the sounds from those amps...not too hard really. I took your advice and thought I would try the power grid. I got to be honest, I didn't notice any real difference in volume, power amp clipping or much else. maybe a little....I think.......not really sure....... not really noticeable. Might be too subtle for me to notice or the power grid doesn't actually work on mine.. My Mesa LS has 10/50/100 watts and there is at least some difference between the different wattage's. Volume and less head room as you set down the wattage. The JCM Slash also has a Hi/Low power switch and again, the difference is noticeable.
I wasn't trying this out at usual volumes I run the amp at. A bit quieter than normal. I was at home with it so I couldn't try it at a good level. Maybe that had something to do with it . But even still, the Mesa LS when run through the different watts did clearly react differently to each flick of the switch and so did the JCM Slash at that same volume level.

One thing I did try was THD Yellow jackets in the TM. That had a significant impact. Not sure If I liked it but at least I could tell that something had changed. I did make the amp creamier on ch3 and ch2 did break up a bit smoother and sooner.

Other than all that, I cant answer your question I dont think my power grid works Sounds great on 100w anyway.

 

[rizla]

Found this on the Egnater web site thanks to viking22's post in another thread.

There is some confusion about the relationship between watts and volume (loudness). There is much discussion about how this many dB is twice as loud as that many and that many dB is double the power and blah blah…… lot’s of techie rambling but no real world explanations. I’ll try. Let’s say you have a guitar amp with a knob to adjust the power (watts). Now say this amp is 20 watts at its maximum power setting and 1 watt at the lowest knob position. It would be reasonable to assume that 20 watts should be loud enough to play with the band and 1 watt would be whisper volume. Anyone who has had the opportunity to test this theory has found quite the contrary. 20 watts through a reasonably efficient speaker is quite loud. 1 watt through the same speaker is also quite loud. What’s up with that? Have you ever seen the specs for a 12” speaker?

A typical guitar speaker will produce about 95 to 100dB at 1 meter (about 3.3ft) with 1 watt of input power. Now put 2 or 4 of that same speaker in a cabinet and the output is even higher. What this is saying is that even with a mere 1 watt of power, that speaker will put out the volume about equal to a person yelling. Obviously not “TV watching” volume. To obtain that whisper volume, you might need as little as 1/10 of a watt but…….at that low a volume, most guitar speakers start to sound terrible. In addition, there is a phenomenon that occurs with human hearing that is documented by Fletcher and Munson (two really smart guys) that graphs the way we hear things at different volumes. Look it up on the internet. The Fletcher/Munson curves show how our ears, at lower volumes, are less responsive to low and high frequencies. That means the quieter you play, the more we tend to want to boost the bass and treble to compensate for our own hearing. Ever seen the “loudness” contour switch on a home stereo? That is what the switch does. It boosts the treble and bass to make it sound better quiet. On a guitar amp you often find knobs for boosting the low and high end in the power amp section.

Typically these controls are called Presence for the high end boost and Resonance or Depth or Density (Egnater) for the low end. At low volumes you typically turn those controls up but the louder you play, the more you find you need to turn them down. Fletcher/Munson again.

Because we make guitar amps with variable power (Rebel) and switchable power (Tourmaster and Modular), we get inquires about this all the time. Often players will use one of our amps and it appears that the power cut feature doesn’t do much. Please allow me to explain.

Let’s say you are playing an amp at home or in a music store at relatively low volume. Recall what was said earlier about how little power it really takes to get a fairly loud volume. If you’re playing quiet, you might be using even less than 1 watt to obtain the loudness you’re at. If you have a chance, try this on a Rebel. Play fairly quiet and turn the WATTS knob from 20 watts to 1 watt. What do you hear? Very little change! Why? Because at that volume you probably are not even using up 1 watt let alone 20 watts. Sort of like driving a car at 5MPH. It doesn’t matter if the engine is a 100HP or 500HP, you are still only going 5MPH and using very little HP to maintain that speed. Same with your amp. To cruise along at low volume requires very little power (watts). Having the extra horsepower (watts) doesn’t make the amp louder when you play at low to medium volume.

Now try this with your Rebel. Set the power to 20 watts, turn the master full up and turn up the gain knob until you start to hear some distortion. It will be loud. While you’re playing turn the WATTS knob down. You will clearly hear and feel the way less power creates a spongier, lower volume tone. Some players are saying the knob isn’t really cutting the power but is reducing the headroom. Call it what you will, the result of reducing power is more of a “feel thing” than a volume thing. Ultimately the idea is to set it to where you like the sound and be happy…..play your guitar.

While we’re on the subject of the Rebel, there has been some talk about how, when panning from the 6V6 tubes to the EL84 tubes, the tone difference is not what some expected. It is believed that by simply changing power tubes you can make a Fender (6L6 power tubes) sound like a Marshall (EL34 power tubes) or a Vox (EL84 power tubes). What you are hearing in the Rebel when you go from 6V6 to EL84 is the real difference in the sound of those two types of tubes. It may not be quite as dramatic as many believe but that is the reality of it. The tonal difference between various types of tubes is more subtle than many believe. A few people have even been disappointed when using the TUBE MIX features because their expectations of what should happen were really not based in fact. The intangible characteristic is the change in “feel” between different types of tubes. These subtle differences do become more apparent at higher volume when the power tubes are “pushed” a little more into overloading. What you are hearing in the Rebel is “the truth” about power tubes.

So yeah, at the levels I was using it at it probably didnt make a difference It was still loud enough to have a good sound but not so loud i was going to annoy the neighbors.
Still doesnt explain to me why I noticed the difference on the Mesa more. I never use the 10 or 50w on the Mesa either tbh.

 

[Len Rabinowitz]

I still find mine really enjoyable to work with. I think the Tourmaster is the ultimate Tweaker! You should use the contour controls and the power grid. A lot of flexibility there.

I was curious about one thing. On the Tourmaster, the power grid is more of a subtle tone control. It doesn't really affect the volume output much.

When I was playing a Mesa Transatlantic, I was switiching it from 5 to 15 to 25 watts and really heard a difference. 25 watts was a lot louder.

Why do you think that difference happens? What is the design difference?

Len,
I was tweaking the TM side by side with a Modern Vintage and JCM Slash trying to cop some of the sounds from those amps...not too hard really. I took your advice and thought I would try the power grid. I got to be honest, I didn't notice any real difference in volume, power amp clipping or much else. maybe a little....I think.......not really sure....... not really noticeable. Might be too subtle for me to notice or the power grid doesn't actually work on mine.. My Mesa LS has 10/50/100 watts and there is at least some difference between the different wattage's. Volume and less head room as you set down the wattage. The JCM Slash also has a Hi/Low power switch and again, the difference is noticeable.
I wasn't trying this out at usual volumes I run the amp at. A bit quieter than normal. I was at home with it so I couldn't try it at a good level. Maybe that had something to do with it . But even still, the Mesa LS when run through the different watts did clearly react differently to each flick of the switch and so did the JCM Slash at that same volume level.

One thing I did try was THD Yellow jackets in the TM. That had a significant impact. Not sure If I liked it but at least I could tell that something had changed. I did make the amp creamier on ch3 and ch2 did break up a bit smoother and sooner.

Other than all that, I cant answer your question I dont think my power grid works Sounds great on 100w anyway.

When I was looking I played 3 or 4 Tourmasters and it wasn't obvious on any of them. I have been pretty sure that I have heard it when I have cranked the amp up. I think it is a design issue rather than a problem, but it might be interesting if Bruce or Ian chimed in.