Torpedo C.A.B. Power Amp Setting Question

Up until this last week, I have been using my Torpedo C.A.B. with my amp head and a Weber Mini Mass load box, using the amps own power section for my tone shaping. A few days ago I got a Frenzel FM-DP1 pre amp so I have begun to use the power amp modeling part of the C.A.B. After reading a few other posts about power amp settings on the C.A.B. and my own experimentation I have a question. Would it be fair to say a good starting setting for the power amp section would be presence at 100, depth at 0 and volume at 10dB?

EDIT: I'm trying to find a neutral starting place with the power amp configuration. Presence at 100 and Depth at 0 sound as neutral as possible to me, but I'm not sure if that is true from a design standpoint?

Using my pedal board, a preamp with a gain, master, and output trim pot, as well as the volume setting on the power amp section on the C.A.B., there is a lot of places to adjust the signal level with various results. I'm trying to dial in a baseline tone/level between the Frenzel pre-amp and the C.A.B. power amp section, and I'm not sure if I am starting in the right place with the config on the C.A.B.?

For anyone who is interested, I ended up with the following settings, Volume 13dB, Presence 90%, Depth 15%. I'm also using PP EL34 with Pentode selected and a Fulltone PlimSoul providing the desired level of dirt into the Frenzel preamp. For me the hardest two settings for the power amp section are the Volume and Depth controls. Too much volume and the power amp gain becomes undefined, and too much depth and things get too compressed and note/string separation suffers.

EDIT: After some more tweaking I ended up at Volume 14dB, Presence 90%, Depth 35%. This is for a 70's Plexi style tone that works well with both humbuckers and P-90's.

I would also like to know what is the neutral setting for the Depth control. I think Two Notes should tell users what the normal default settings should be to start off because it is really confusing for a first time user.

Use your ears, and twist the controls until you like the sound.

I tend to start with the Presence up high, the Depth centered more or less, and then go from there. These will vary depending on a number of variables, including the tube type selected and the input freq response and level from the preamp, as well as the IR or cab used etc.

Roughly speaking, for Cleans I set the power amp Volume at 12 or less, for Power Amp Color from say 12 to 18, and for Power Amp Crunch over 18, that's with a relatively hot but not clipping input level.

In the end all that matters is whether you like the tone.

djd100":2itmc002 said:

Use your ears, and twist the controls until you like the sound.

I tend to start with the Presence up high, the Depth centered more or less, and then go from there. These will vary depending on a number of variables, including the tube type selected and the input freq response and level from the preamp, as well as the IR or cab used etc.

Roughly speaking, for Cleans I set the power amp Volume at 12 or less, for Power Amp Color from say 12 to 18, and for Power Amp Crunch over 18, that's with a relatively hot but not clipping input level.

In the end all that matters is whether you like the tone.

Click to expand...

I think my biggest bit of heartburn with my new preamp is just not having enough experience with it to know how it is going to respond with certain tweaks. The tallest hurdle was adjusting the input level into the CAB using both a master volume knob and an output trim pot on the preamp. With my amp head/loadbox set up I like to get the input level on the CAB up to a solid -3dB. Most of the IR's and CAB settings I use work best with that input level. With the new Frenzel preamp I was only able to get the input level to be consistently between -6dB and -3dB. If I brought the level up any higher I was getting too much low end that I couldn't dial out. Given that I am using a plexi style preamp the low end with higher master volume settings really didn't surprise me because any plexi type amp with a master volume that I have ever used behaves the same way. With it all said and done I've got a tone I happy with which is all I can really ask.

The depth control still has me scratching my head a little though. I can see how it adds low end and kind of fills the sound out, but there seems to be an element of compression that occurs as well and it seems to kick in fairly quickly from the 0 position. One of the strange things that I noticed is that the compression seems to shift from an overall compression to certain frequencies over the coarse of it's travel. At about 45 I really liked the compression that was taking place on the low end strings, but the middle strings started fading into each other and the high strings became a bit dull. I guess I'm just so used to configuring the sounds that I am after with an integrated preamp and power amp section that having the ability to configure both of them separately is messing with my ideas of how things should work and sound.

Dear all,

if it's you first time with C.A.B., I would recommend you keep the power amp OFF unitil you find a good tone with the miking only, then activate the power amp.

When the power amp is ON, basically the setting to start with should be Presence and Depth at 100%.

BUT, the tube model, circuit topology (SE or PP) and the Triode/Pentode mode will play a role as well.

For example, the EL84 will have less bass frequencies than EL34, thus the Depth parameter will have less effect.

If you have Presence at a low value, as Depth is placed after in the negative feedback of the modeled amp, it will have less effect as well (you feed it with less bass actually).

Maybe a block diagram would help?

About compression, it's mainly the sag effect that you hear, to make it simple, the more bass you have, the more compression you'll get.

Hi Guillaume...

I'll have to disagree about getting the tone without the power amp sim first because in some cases the power amp sim is a major component of the tones (vintage mid-gain, edge-of-breakup tones etc), so in my opinion one should have it on while adjusting/selecting cab/mic/IR's since it's a big element of the sound.

For other sounds such as pure cleans or way high gain tones then I'd agree that's it's not as important.

Ciao...

guillaume_pille":3w1hi3dm said:

Dear all,

if it's you first time with C.A.B., I would recommend you keep the power amp OFF unitil you find a good tone with the miking only, then activate the power amp.

When the power amp is ON, basically the setting to start with should be Presence and Depth at 100%.

BUT, the tube model, circuit topology (SE or PP) and the Triode/Pentode mode will play a role as well.

For example, the EL84 will have less bass frequencies than EL34, thus the Depth parameter will have less effect.

If you have Presence at a low value, as Depth is placed after in the negative feedback of the modeled amp, it will have less effect as well (you feed it with less bass actually).

Maybe a block diagram would help?

About compression, it's mainly the sag effect that you hear, to make it simple, the more bass you have, the more compression you'll get.

Click to expand...

I'll have to disagree about getting the tone without the power amp sim first because in some cases the power amp sim is a major component of the tones (vintage mid-gain, edge-of-breakup tones etc), so in my opinion one should have it on while adjusting/selecting cab/mic/IR's since it's a big element of the sound.

Click to expand...

Well, I agree with you, but having the power amp ON can lead to two things people tend to not understand:

- if the volume is set too high on the pow amp, they hear distortion and don't understand where it's from. It's trying out an amp fully cranked the first time you use it, and not understand there is distortion due to the volume. I won't tell you how many times I had to explain that on the support.

- If Presence and Depth are not set to max, they will think the C.A.B. is killing their sound. Especially with the bass frequencies, the kind of bass any sound engineer will kill given the proper occasion.

So I agree that the power amp is important, otherwise, well, there won't be a power amp sim in the C.A.B., but the advice I give is based on how the people behave when they are in front of the product for the first time.

Indeed, support is a totally different game completely, and agreed that most of that bass gets rolled off in the mix, but personally I tend to track with it so I always have the option of it being there, then using the HPF or EQ as needed during the mix. I'd rather have the bass and not need it than need it and not have it LOL!

Proper gain staging is of course critical at every stage of the chain.

Touche!

guillaume_pille":he1ngd3r said:

I'll have to disagree about getting the tone without the power amp sim first because in some cases the power amp sim is a major component of the tones (vintage mid-gain, edge-of-breakup tones etc), so in my opinion one should have it on while adjusting/selecting cab/mic/IR's since it's a big element of the sound.

Click to expand...

Well, I agree with you, but having the power amp ON can lead to two things people tend to not understand:

- if the volume is set too high on the pow amp, they hear distortion and don't understand where it's from. It's trying out an amp fully cranked the first time you use it, and not understand there is distortion due to the volume. I won't tell you how many times I had to explain that on the support.

- If Presence and Depth are not set to max, they will think the C.A.B. is killing their sound. Especially with the bass frequencies, the kind of bass any sound engineer will kill given the proper occasion.

So I agree that the power amp is important, otherwise, well, there won't be a power amp sim in the C.A.B., but the advice I give is based on how the people behave when they are in front of the product for the first time.

Click to expand...

When I lower the Depth control, does it lower the amount of bass? So, 0 = no bass and 100 = max bass?

When I lower the Depth control, does it lower the amount of bass? So, 0 = no bass and 100 = max bass?

Click to expand...

Absolutely, but as this filter is after Presence, remember to keep presence at a high value, otherwise Depth won't do anything.

I'm just thinking I should change the way those parameters work to make them more simple to use...

Guess I do this backwards!

I usually pick my power amp and cab, turn off miking, set the levels and tone, then add miking and do the final tweaking with mic placement/type. My thought is that this is how I would do it with a real tube amp.


I've just gone back to revisit my presets, I've got too many choices between my Mesa TriAxis and CAB. Very interactive and tedious process.

I plan to set-up a few new presets: Clean, Crunch, Dist, Clean Lead, Dist Lead. My main preset is: PP 6L6 + Calif StdC + Dynamic 57. The power amp is Vol: 10dB, Presence: 50%, Depth: 50%, Pentode; mike is center (0%), close (0%). I leave the EQ off or all set to 0dB. Preset level is -17 dB, output is 2dB. This covers everything but clean.

Anyone have settings for a clean EL84 2x12, and EL34 4x12?

Comment sa va Guillaume?

I think we might have discussed this previously, but in my opinion the confusion come from this...

In tube amps the "presence" control is normally implemented as a low-pass filter inside the global negative feedback loop. By decreasing the amount of high frequencies that are fed back, the high frequencies at the output of the amplifier are boosted

Click to expand...

...so, normally when one has the Presence control at "0" the sound is darker, and when they turn the Presence Control up the sound gets brighter as fewer "out-of-phase hi freqs" are fed back (Depth is the opposite), so most users are used to adding highs when turning up their Presence Control, and adding lows when turning up their Depth Control.

The two Notes Presence Control seems to add lows when it's turned up which is why we like to start with it high etc, and cuts lows as it's turned down. I'm used to it now but it did confuse me initially as well.

Ciao...

guillaume_pille":2uxewq9f said:

When I lower the Depth control, does it lower the amount of bass? So, 0 = no bass and 100 = max bass?

Click to expand...

Absolutely, but as this filter is after Presence, remember to keep presence at a high value, otherwise Depth won't do anything.

I'm just thinking I should change the way those parameters work to make them more simple to use...

Click to expand...

Actually the presence is more of a Loudness control, but you are 100% right. It's a debate we had at Two Notes, and I can say the term presence is inappropriate, I will come with something better.