Enough PAF winding. Time for some pickups with balls.

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scottosan

scottosan

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After my first 15 or so pickups being PAFs, some high output pickups were in order. Since most people don’t like potted PAFs, I hadn’t really been working on my potting techniques, but have been working on a high output set. I took my guitars all loaded with newly wound pickups to go demo them at my friends music store, since there tons of amps to play through. All went well and I really like what I was hearing and took notes of how I wanted to tweak them. So, on the way home, I had to run some errands and left my guitars in my van. Nothing I haven’t done before. I get home and as usual, I hook everything back up and make sure everything survived the journey. Unfortunately, my potted pickups had become unpotted in the Texas heat :D. I had been working on a formula with a lower melting point that I could used butyrate PAF bobbins since they warp under normal potting temperatures. R&D fail #31 in the past 2 week. Back to the drawing board. Apparently not only was I using a mixture with too low of a melting point, but I wasn’t potting long enough either.

Anyway, this is a set that I have been tweaking all week. I’ve probably sacrificed 5 pickups in the process, but it could have been worse. I am following a popular recipe in regards to winds and output but deviating a little bit. The bridge, is 14.4K. A lot of people like to use ceramic or ALNICO 2 here for some VH vibe. To me, both of those magnet add too much compression and sponginess. I wanted to add a little more clarity, but a standard A5 can be a little shrill. On the other hand, a rough cast A5 short has that clarity but is warmer like an A2. Every pickup ive wound, I’ve tried with 6 different magnet types. For the bridge, I went 7.8k rough cast long A5. I really like the neck pickup. It really added the depth to my cleans. This guitar can sound thin with the wrong pickups.

For reference, the G12-65s are on the dark side always add a little butter to the tone.

 
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For potting, I use carnuba and bees wax. Around 50/50 or 60/40. Use a double boiler to melt. Put in a thermometer to check the temp. I would insert it until the wax that solidifies (from the pickup being cold) melts or becomes clear. I’d then remove front the wax, wipe it off, then let it sit in the upright position until cool. Then wipe off the legs and install.

When using covers and UNPOTTED pickups, I would warm up the cover and put a little melted wax on the inside top of the cover then quickly insert the pickup into the cover, press hard and solder. I’ve found the little wax on the top (filling the gap between the bobbins and cover prevents a LOT of microphonics.

Clip sounds good. I like the clear sound. have you tried alnico 4 magnets?
 
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psychodave said:
For potting, I use carnuba and bees wax. Around 50/50 or 60/40. Use a double boiler to melt. Put in a thermometer to check the temp. I would insert it until the wax that solidifies (from the pickup being cold) melts or becomes clear. I’d then remove front the wax, wipe it off, then let it sit in the upright position until cool. Then wipe off the legs and install.

When using covers and UNPOTTED pickups, I would warm up the cover and put a little melted wax on the inside top of the cover then quickly insert the pickup into the cover, press hard and solder. I’ve found the little wax on the top (filling the gap between the bobbins and cover prevents a LOT of microphonics.

Clip sounds good. I like the clear sound. have you tried alnico 4 magnets?
Click to expand...
I have a PAF set that I really liked best with the A4s. About 500-600 turn offset between the coil, bridge 8.3k and neck 7.4K. Did exactly what you mention with the covers. The behave very good. They will squeal a bit at highest gain settings and volume pushed with me playing 3 feet from the cab, but who does that? :dunno: I’ve have tracked turns, offer, DCR, TPL (turns per layer) , ,tension, inductance and capacitance of every pickup I’ve done so far. A bit OCD, but it’s easy to adjus
 
Sounds really good @scottosan

If you ever have some hotter pups you need feedback on, I have a Les Paul to put them in. And a bunch of tests to put them thru.
 
Donnie B. said:
Heat gun or oven and what temp is 'warm'?
I think I remember reading that you want as warm/hot as possible to help with the final solder tack.
Click to expand...
I would use a space heater. Temp I would use would be hot enough so that the wax wouldn’t solidify quickly…. But not burn your hand. That’s why I use a mixture of carnuba and bees wax. Carnuba can be brittle and has a higher melt point. I agree with heat until the final solder tack.
 
Late on this.. Sounds great.
Just curious, does potting affect the tone?
 
midnightlaundry said:
Late on this.. Sounds great.
Just curious, does potting affect the tone?
Click to expand...
Yes, potting changes the dynamics of the pickup. Potting seems to reduce the openness and spacial aspects. This is why lots of people, especially those using PAF pickups, want unpotted pickups. Obviously there are those that prefer potting as well.
 
midnightlaundry said:
Late on this.. Sounds great.
Just curious, does potting affect the tone?
Click to expand...
Absolutely does, mainly in the high end. If I made 2 of the same pickups and potted one, you would think the unpotted 1 was brighter and livelier. The wax not only adds capacitance but shifts down the resonant peak. As Dave states, there an openness or breathiness associated with with unpotted pickups. If you don’t play high gain you can probably get away with unpotted. Or sometimes it’s room depended. Loud volume, gain and small rooms are a recipe for the pickups to squeal like a pig. Th discussion of potting it really more of a discussion for lower output pickups and for 2 reasons.

1. the higher the output the more prone to microphonics

2. Unpotted pickups are brighter and with high output pickups, there is a lots (too much) high end. Potting tames that quite a bit.

There are levels of potting. In the case of PAFs, a lot of the microphonics can be tamed by a quick dip of pickup to pot the metal parts (cover, slugs, keeper, etc). I would say this reduces microphonics about 70%, but again, they will squeal(not feedback) with too much gain and volume. For me, easy to tame with 3 gain stages, somewhat with medium clipping, but with highest clipping setting forget about it.

Dipping 10-20 minutes should make the pickup useable for almost any situation 30 min at most. You are still not saturating the coils even at this point, but your not neutering the pickup completely either.

Vacuum potting. A lot of high volume winders use this method. Not only is it much faster, but you get complete coil penetration and virtually no chance of any microphonics in any playing situation. While their pickups are still good and responsible for many of the albums we know today, anyone who has played boutique pickups can hear and fell the difference when playing unpotted and dipped vs vacuum potted. The reality is that the people in the audience can’t tell the difference but in person and isolated the differences are more obvious. You’re just never going to capture in in a YouTube clip or mix.
 
I mentioned this before.... I'm curious if you could hear up the wire slightly as its being applied to a coil so that the varnish (or whatever) insulation gets ever so slightly tacky so that all of the windings adhere to each other creating a natural kind of "potting". I'm sure it would still sound a little different, but it might be really cool.

I'm sure some makers compensate for the effects of potting by winding a pickup to be slightly brighter, etc.
 
Cool. In my brain I would try to work with vacuum potting.. I need it to be reliable and predictable. EMG's?? LOL
 
psychodave said:
I mentioned this before.... I'm curious if you could hear up the wire slightly as its being applied to a coil so that the varnish (or whatever) insulation gets ever so slightly tacky so that all of the windings adhere to each other creating a natural kind of "potting". I'm sure it would still sound a little different, but it might be really cool.

I'm sure some makers compensate for the effects of potting by winding a pickup to be slightly brighter, etc.
Click to expand...
Both the enamel and even the poly based coatings have a pretty high heat rating and at that point melt away. Since a lot of winders use felt to clamp the wire for tension control, I imaging it has some sort of absorption factor if you had a way and a formula to coat the wire as it passes through the felt or similar material, it could in theory apply some tackiness to the wire. There is a winder in Europe called Nowaxx that touts no using wax. Not sure his methods though
 
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midnightlaundry said:
Cool. In my brain I would try to work with vacuum potting.. I need it to be reliable and predictable. EMG's?? LOL
Click to expand...
Vacuum potting is the most predictable, but it kills the tone the most in my opinion. But I also feel that down tuning am too much gain negates that anyway. I’ve been at ampfest that were much for confined than a stage and volumes louder than what most clubs would allow and no issues with dipped. Here are some Jalen pickups. I was just talking to him this week about potting and he does the dipping/soaking.

the volume was deafening

 
Farther down the rabbit hole dude.. LOL
A quick search showed that Wax isn't the only way.
What would happen if you vacuum potted with Rustoleum Acrylic?
Would a harder medium result in a brighter tone? Would Acrylic Latex give a more bouncy tone?? LOL
 

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midnightlaundry said:
Farther down the rabbit hole dude.. LOL
A quick search showed that Wax isn't the only way.
What would happen if you vacuum potted with Rustoleum Acrylic?
Would a harder medium result in a brighter tone? Would Acrylic Latex give a more bouncy tone?? LOL
Click to expand...
Lacquer has been used before but can become brittle. Also making a repair a nightmare
 
Back to generalizations..
Would you say a lower output pickup brings out the sound of the instrument more??
Is there a difference between bracket mounted and direct mounted??
Inquiring minds wanna know!
Thanks for your efforts!
 
scottosan said:
Lacquer has been used before but can become brittle. Also making a repair a nightmare
Click to expand...
Gibson made the Tarback in the late 70s-early 80s. I don't know what it is but I think a repair would be impossible.
 
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