Intonation

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SpiderWars

SpiderWars

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This is for standard guitars with standard nuts and standard straight/parallel frets.

I have a hypothesis that if your bridge saddles do not form the typical shape (i.e. two ramps, one for the wound and one for the unwound strings) then your nut isn't cut/backfiled properly. If you find certain saddles are farther back than you would expect, it's probably because the string is not riding on the leading edge of the nut. So you have to compensate by moving the saddle rearward to get it in tune at the 12th fret. But it will be way sharp near the nut and flat way up high on the fretboard.

I mention this because whenever I see a guitar and the bridge saddles do not form that typical shape we've all seen, I immediately think something isn't right. EVERY time without fail whenever I've found this on my guitars it was due to an improperly cut nut.

It's why they can make a stop bar with those two ramps and it should work on any guitar of that scale length.

What do you think?
 
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SpiderWars said:
This is for standard guitars with standard nuts and standard straight/parallel frets.

I have a hypothesis that if your bridge saddles do not form the typical shape (i.e. two ramps, one for the wound and one for the unwound strings) then your nut isn't cut/backfiled properly. If you find certain saddles are farther back than you would expect, it's probably because the string is not riding on the leading edge of the nut. So you have to compensate by moving the saddle rearward to get it in tune at the 12th fret. But it will be way sharp near the nut and flat way up high on the fretboard.

I mention this because whenever I see a guitar and the bridge saddles do not form that typical shape we've all seen, I immediately think something isn't right. EVERY time without fail whenever I've found this on my guitars it was due to an improperly cut nut.

It's why they can make a stop bar with those two ramps and it should work on any guitar of that scale length.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
okay
 
I reckon you are talking about guitars with TOM bridges and tailpiece, where you can't adjust the height of an individual saddle....Because I don't adjust height of saddles in a typical way (following the radius of the fretboard, as long as the strings don't fret out with bending).
 
SpiderWars said:
This is for standard guitars with standard nuts and standard straight/parallel frets.

I have a hypothesis that if your bridge saddles do not form the typical shape (i.e. two ramps, one for the wound and one for the unwound strings) then your nut isn't cut/backfiled properly. If you find certain saddles are farther back than you would expect, it's probably because the string is not riding on the leading edge of the nut. So you have to compensate by moving the saddle rearward to get it in tune at the 12th fret. But it will be way sharp near the nut and flat way up high on the fretboard.

I mention this because whenever I see a guitar and the bridge saddles do not form that typical shape we've all seen, I immediately think something isn't right. EVERY time without fail whenever I've found this on my guitars it was due to an improperly cut nut.

It's why they can make a stop bar with those two ramps and it should work on any guitar of that scale length.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
Funny you should mention this because I just ran into this problem over the weekend
 
turboblues said:
I reckon you are talking about guitars with TOM bridges and tailpiece, where you can't adjust the height of an individual saddle....Because I don't adjust height of saddles in a typical way (following the radius of the fretboard, as long as the strings don't fret out with bending).
Click to expand...
Not talking about height (up/down), talking about intonation (forward/back).

Now if only our resident genius douchynelson had an intelligent response.
 
Sometimes if odd gauges of string(s) are used and the guitar is correspondingly intonated it can lead to the saddles being all over the place. Even a different brand of strings (not gauges) can sometimes lead to wacky intonation settings.
 
I think it's an interesting hypothesis but I'll add another thought - let's say the string is indeed taking off at a point behind the leading edge of the nut. Chances are, it's still pretty close. Unless the nut is a total hack job, the string is probably taking off 1-2 mm back from the leading edge.

So while this is still improperly cut, if you translate that 1-2 mm to the bridge saddle having to be moved 1-2 mm to compensate, you still aren't seeing that drastic of a departure from the classic "pair of ramps" shape that you describe. Maybe one saddle ends up being even with another, but I've seen this happen with properly cut nuts and instead the discrepancy was caused by string gauge/type in relation to the neighbor.

I'm skeptical that the "2 ramps" shape = perfection, but perhaps it is if we're talking 9-42 or 10-46. At least PRS thinks it is with some of their fixed bridges.
 
SpiderWars said:
Not talking about height (up/down), talking about intonation (forward/back).
Click to expand...
I know, but intonation is also affected by string saddle height. And if you have individual string saddles that are not set in height following the fretboard radius than you can get a departure of the "classic pair of ramps".
 
You have a sound hypothesis, but if you were to do real testing of it you'd see that it would be incomplete. There are a number of factors in any combination that will affect intonation and saddle adjustment. String gauge, string height, nut slot angle, slot height, saddle height, type of saddle, scale length, etc. Intonation can be off if your pickups are set too high. The magnets can pull the strings slightly out of tune. And let's not forget to factor in that someone did a shitty job of intonating it in the first place. Intonation isn't exactly rocket surgery, but there are a number of factors that can affect it which may or may not produce the "typical" shape.

I think the hypothesis would better be revised to state: Of the number of possible reasons for bridge saddles to not have the typical shape there is an X% chance it is due to an improperly cut nut.
 
thegame said:
Sometimes if odd gauges of string(s) are used and the guitar is correspondingly intonated it can lead to the saddles being all over the place. Even a different brand of strings (not gauges) can sometimes lead to wacky intonation settings.
Click to expand...

This has been my experience too. It can even vary when using the exact same brand and gauge of strings from one pack to another

Neck relief (or lack thereof) also makes a big difference
 
In general I agree as a lot of nuts are cut like shit (Gibson) but factors such as relief, bridge height and neck twist can make for an odd looking saddle arrangement. As long as it’s intonated correctly at the 5th and 12th fret all is good.
 
Ive had plenty of bad nuts on many guitars... *ahem bc rich, ibanez cough cough... but lately my gibsons have actually been the only ones that were solid. (my latest '21 SG Standard, '21 les paul 60's standard, and 50's goldtop standard with p90's) they've definitely upped their QA in the last couple years.

i've also used much thicker gauge strings on my guitars. 13-56 in standard or Eb... so that may be a factor, but the ones I left with stock strings 10 to whatever's... have also been pretty solid.
 
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