Marshall JCM800 Questions

Here’s yet another great reason to change out your vintage Marshall caps, that aren’t leaking/bulging, amp sounds great, to new caps. Just to experience this.
Ladies and gentlemen, may I present you a new in 2021 BAD SLO. With the brand new exploded cap feature. 😂
 

Attachments

  • FB8C5D2F-B53F-40D5-8D3C-CCC3018280BD.jpeg
    FB8C5D2F-B53F-40D5-8D3C-CCC3018280BD.jpeg
    2.4 MB · Views: 66
Tell ya what, know-it-all, why don't you join over on the Marshall forum and ask your question. The only clowns who chime in and say "Always change those caps no matter what!!" are 'techs' like yourself. Builders like Larry and others value those old LCR and Daly caps; and will gladly buy them up by the box if possible. There's a couple British restorers of vintage Marshalls, who have boxes of Mustards/Eerie and Daly caps, that will agree and say the same thing...if they aren't bulging, leaking and the amp sounds strong like expected then they are just fine.
I'll bet you also 'recommend' ditching the tubes when you do a cap change...and gladly stash away a nice vintage set of power/pre tubes. Another nice 'tech' move.
I don’t have to give any further explanation on any forum as to why it’s important to change out capacitors after 20 years. You’re doing a fine job with your logic and reasoning against mine. Physics doesn’t give a damn what forum I go to.

Be sure to tell everyone when your transformers decide to go, just as loudly as you’re proclaiming not to change out old worn out capacitors as a precautionary measure, that you’ve fucked up your vintage amp because Cartman in his moms basement on some forum said it was fine.

There’s a logical reason why everyone from a technician to myself with graduate degrees warns people to change them out BEFORE they cause an issue, not after.
 
I don’t have to give any further explanation on any forum as to why it’s important to change out capacitors after 20 years. You’re doing a fine job with your logic and reasoning against mine. Physics doesn’t give a damn what forum I go to.

Be sure to tell everyone when your transformers decide to go, just as loudly as you’re proclaiming not to change out old worn out capacitors as a precautionary measure, that you’ve fucked up your vintage amp because Cartman in his moms basement on some forum said it was fine.

There’s a logical reason why everyone from a technician to myself with graduate degrees warns people to change them out BEFORE they cause an issue, not after.
Yup, 60+ vintage Marshalls and counting, not one issue ever. The one 1983 2203 that did have leaky caps, had those no name green caps Marshall used in the early 80s and weren’t even LCRs.
But yes you go ahead and recommend everyone spend money, no matter what. Maybe even recommend guys be proactive and change out their timing chains in their vehicles too, while you’re at it.
I mean, to be proactive and all. Cuz someday it will break.
😂😂
 
It’s been a struggle to even get those pics. I don’t think the seller knows everything that’s been done but getting info is like pulling teeth. So I’m not sure if it’s an ‘87 that he thinks is an ‘84 or an ‘84 that’s been worked on. Do those look like original trannies?
The data code on the LCR's says: 87-28

The amp was built in summer of 1987
 
Really appreciate all the input on this chaps. I've sourced another one with better pics. 1983 2203, all original supposedly. Please see the pics. Only one of the trannies has a date that you can read anymore per the seller. Thoughts?
 

Attachments

  • 309944845_787668005636504_8941648655691620557_n.jpg
    309944845_787668005636504_8941648655691620557_n.jpg
    176.8 KB · Views: 42
  • 310532980_659705752397822_2170270924375921979_n.jpg
    310532980_659705752397822_2170270924375921979_n.jpg
    363.9 KB · Views: 39
  • 310558688_1570458766707005_7265438986395112447_n.jpg
    310558688_1570458766707005_7265438986395112447_n.jpg
    219.4 KB · Views: 41
  • 310656783_646130507003823_2546153552679577244_n.jpg
    310656783_646130507003823_2546153552679577244_n.jpg
    204.1 KB · Views: 58
  • 310987546_1649019328829264_24322909709026904_n.jpg
    310987546_1649019328829264_24322909709026904_n.jpg
    358 KB · Views: 56
  • 311926624_932355071502646_6809675038411317190_n.jpg
    311926624_932355071502646_6809675038411317190_n.jpg
    169.5 KB · Views: 53
  • 311997072_1145093759452369_7002610924114579307_n.jpg
    311997072_1145093759452369_7002610924114579307_n.jpg
    320.6 KB · Views: 38
  • 312358944_451281947115949_7894199893619118193_n.jpg
    312358944_451281947115949_7894199893619118193_n.jpg
    171.8 KB · Views: 47
  • 312832526_662768801926346_7936084819934613249_n.jpg
    312832526_662768801926346_7936084819934613249_n.jpg
    209 KB · Views: 36
  • 312885463_525154742465294_5029293496302377901_n.jpg
    312885463_525154742465294_5029293496302377901_n.jpg
    193.9 KB · Views: 39
Looks to possibly be Canadian spec? The switches look factory but not US spec. And the French on the panel I haven’t seen before.
Edit: looks like the Canadian spec ones lack a 16ohm tap/ use a different transformer to meet Canadas stupid regulations.
 
Last edited:
This comment has nothing to do with this amp, but is intended to shed some light on the subject of electrolytic capacitors - and to diplomatically lead the battle between glpg80 and Racerxratet to a peaceful solution.

In principle, every EE learns during their training that electrolytics (depending on the country and the applicable VDE, RU, CSA, etc. regulations) must be replaced after 10, 15 or 20 years. In addition, new Electrolytics may only be installed if they have not yet exceeded a storage age of 5 years.

These are the basics in school, training and that's what the textbooks say - just like you should throw away a can of beans after the expiry date has passed, although the contents could still be enjoyed for a few years longer without any problems.

That's just the theory - but now to practice (electrolytics, not beans :D )

The Erie electrolytics could be critical due to its age of meanwhile 55-60 years and should therefore be carefully checked for capacitance, ESR and leakage current (which requires unsoldering the positive contact and inserting a mA meter) after a gentle discharge.

The later Daly and especially the even later LCR electrolytics have (contrary to the laws of physics) an apparently (almost) unlimited life span.

However, this only applies if the amp has NEVER been out of use for more than half a year since it was first fired up as a new amp.

Unused electrolytics gradually deform, which, to put it in understandable terms, means that the oxide layer, which acts as the only insulator between the two aluminum foils in an electrolytics gradually dissolves, is dissolved by the electrolyte - and thus both foils come into electrical contact with each other. This process begins gradually after about 6 months without any voltage being applied and is completed after 2-3 years at the latest.

Now, when someone finds an old Marshall in a friend's basement or attic that hasn't been used in several years, they are at first delighted and can't wait to fire it up and hear the old sweetheart - but the joy is there usually only short and is abruptly ended by an ugly crash, followed by a massive hummmmm. One or more electrolytics have died due to a internal short and in the worst case even burst or explode.

In order to avoid this, you MUST form the electrolytics of an old amplifier that has not been in use for more than 6 months before switching it on again for the first time, so that the insulating oxide layer on the internal aluminum foil, which has since dissolved can form again.

I described how this works with Marshall amps almost exactly 16 years ago here:

http://forum.metropoulos.net/viewtopic.php?p=81922

Btw - I still use good old NOS LCR electrolytics for my new builds, which were produced in 1993 & 1994 and of which I had bought plenty of them in good time before the end of production.

Of course I have to form these electrolytics, which is a 36-48 hour process before I start my newly built DINO, British Purist, Rock Wizard or Pure Metal Machine with the tubes applied for the first time - but...

... I haven't had a single 'old' LCR of my newly built amps fail due to a defect - and my DINOs in particular are sometimes used live up to 150 shows a year for several hours each :giggle:
 
Last edited:
Tell ya what, know-it-all, why don't you join over on the Marshall forum and ask your question. The only clowns who chime in and say "Always change those caps no matter what!!" are 'techs' like yourself. Builders like Larry and others value those old LCR and Daly caps; and will gladly buy them up by the box if possible. There's a couple British restorers of vintage Marshalls, who have boxes of Mustards/Eerie and Daly caps, that will agree and say the same thing...if they aren't bulging, leaking and the amp sounds strong like expected then they are just fine.
I'll bet you also 'recommend' ditching the tubes when you do a cap change...and gladly stash away a nice vintage set of power/pre tubes. Another nice 'tech' move.
giphy.gif
 
This comment has nothing to do with this amp, but is intended to shed some light on the subject of electrolytic capacitors - and to diplomatically lead the battle between glpg80 and Racerxratet to a peaceful solution.

In principle, every EE learns during their training that electrolytics (depending on the country and the applicable VDE, RU, CSA, etc. regulations) must be replaced after 10, 15 or 20 years. In addition, new Electrolytics may only be installed if they have not yet exceeded a storage age of 5 years.

These are the basics in school, training and that's what the textbooks say - just like you should throw away a can of beans after the expiry date has passed, although the contents could still be enjoyed for a few years longer without any problems.

That's just the theory - but now to practice (electrolytics, not beans :D )

The Erie electrolytics could be critical due to its age of meanwhile 55-60 years and should therefore be carefully checked for capacitance, ESR and leakage current (which requires unsoldering the positive contact and inserting a mA meter) after a gentle discharge.

The later Daly and especially the even later LCR electrolytics have (contrary to the laws of physics) an apparently (almost) unlimited life span.

However, this only applies if the amp has NEVER been out of use for more than half a year since it was first fired up as a new amp.

Unused electrolytics gradually deform, which, to put it in understandable terms, means that the oxide layer, which acts as the only insulator between the two aluminum foils in an electrolytics gradually dissolves, is dissolved by the electrolyte - and thus both foils come into electrical contact with each other. This process begins gradually after about 6 months without any voltage being applied and is completed after 2-3 years at the latest.

Now, when someone finds an old Marshall in a friend's basement or attic that hasn't been used in several years, they are at first delighted and can't wait to fire it up and hear the old sweetheart - but the joy is there usually only short and is abruptly ended by an ugly crash, followed by a massive hummmmm. One or more electrolytics have died due to a internal short and in the worst case even burst or explode.

In order to avoid this, you MUST form the electrolytics of an old amplifier that has not been in use for more than 6 months before switching it on again for the first time, so that the insulating oxide layer on the internal aluminum foil, which has since dissolved can form again.

I described how this works with Marshall amps almost exactly 16 years ago here:

http://forum.metropoulos.net/viewtopic.php?p=81922

Btw - I still use good old NOS LCR electrolytics for my new builds, which were produced in 1993 & 1994 and of which I had bought plenty of them in good time before the end of production.

Of course I have to form these electrolytics, which is a 36-48 hour process before I start my newly built DINO, British Purist, Rock Wizard or Pure Metal Machine with the tubes applied for the first time - but...

... I haven't had a single 'old' LCR of my newly built amps fail due to a defect - and my DINOs in particular are sometimes used live up to 150 shows a year for several hours each :giggle:
So, I have to ask...IF the basement or attic Marshall is unused for way too long, and the caps need to be re formed, would these caps show signs of this? IE bulging, leaking, or the amp IF fired up, sounds very weak and anemic?
 
Or instead of forming them, just replace them.

I really do not understand the pushback. I had LCRs in my 74 and much prefer ARS over worn out leaking (electrical or physical) garbage that could risk damage to original dagnalls/drakes. It’s literally and tonally not worth the effort to keep them.

And all of you at-homers or shit techs not swapping bias capacitors when completing a full recap are asking for trouble too.
 
Last edited:
Or instead of forming them, just replace them.

I really do not understand the pushback. I had LCRs in my 74 and much prefer ARS over worn out leaking (electrical or physical) garbage that could risk damage to original dagnalls/drakes. It’s literally and tonally not worth the effort to keep them.

And all of you at-homers or shit techs not swapping bias capacitors when completing a full recap are asking for trouble too.
Well, if they're leaking, of course replace. No one here ever suggested keeping LEAKING filter caps.
 
Most electrolytics start to experience leakage with age that stresses them and other parts around them, and they don't show visible signs of the damage. If someone is determined to keep original electrolytics, they can be rebuilt. The vintage radio and TV guys do that, though I really don't know anything about the process. Electrolytic capacitors have a shorter lifespan than tubes, in general.

The main reason for replacing them when going through an old amp is expediency. After it's opened up, capacitors are fast and easy to replace. It's a lot like having the mechanic just replace standard wear parts in an engine while it's opened up. You're not doing it because they're bad. You're doing it because you're there, and it make sense to just do it all at once. Capacitors are cheap and most of the labor was paid getting there.

The only way to know if the capacitors are leaking is to test them, which is again more time and effort (read: expense) than just replacing them.
 
You guys are scaring me now. I have an 81 jcm800 2203 and i don't think i have turned it on in a few months. I better fire it up soon and do so more often.
 
Or instead of forming them, just replace them.

I really do not understand the pushback. I had LCRs in my 74 and much prefer ARS over worn out leaking (electrical or physical) garbage that could risk damage to original dagnalls/drakes. It’s literally and tonally not worth the effort to keep them.
ARS are the electrolytics that come closest to the LCRs in terms of sound - and yes, they are ok, but unfortunately a little thinner than the originals and therefore a bit tricky to get them firmly in the clamp.

However, if you install F&Ts or JJs for a very vintage sound-oriented guitarist with (still) good ears instead of the Daly or LCR, he may tell you that he no longer recognizes his amp and immediately afterwards he will cry. I've experienced it exactly the same way, otherwise I wouldn't write it.
 
And all of you at-homers or shit techs not swapping bias capacitors when completing a full recap are asking for trouble too.
Absolutely! The bias electrolytics are extremely important - and they are not type-sensitive. All brands can be used here, provided they have the correct values.
 
Back
Top