I tested if speaker break in is fact or fiction

  • Thread starter Thread starter the other John Browne
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a little off topic as it's not about speakers / break in...watching the Jim Lill videos was interesting to me. especially the amp tone vid. with the right / effective controls he was able to get similar tones of various amps...it seems a good EQ and knowing how to use it and your ears will give you many tones.

It's one of the reasons my new-to-me ISP Theta Pro MS preamp/effects unit is working and sounding great to me: pre- (3-band) and post- (5-band) semi-parametric EQs - it reminds me of my ADA MP-1 + MQ-1 which I replaced with a MP-2 which had the main / pre- EQ and a post-eq for each preset.

I'm wondering if a guitar preamp that is nothing more than three-four gain stages combined with a 20-band GEQ / 10-band PEQ would be able to do nearly every guitar tone imaginable?

for reference if you haven't seen it.

 
RaceU4her said:
i remember guys spraying new speakers with fabric softener back in the day trying to get them to break in faster :LOL: im actually surprised speaker companies never tried to profit more off "break in", like i could see a special batch of celestions called the "Masters" line or some bullshit thats been broken in with some special method or exotic fabric softener fine tuned to only allow the sweetest highs and creamy lows for $50 more per speaker, you know guys would buy them
Click to expand...
"Celes-Tone Speaker Conditioner and Body Wash"
 
MetalHeadMike said:
Kind of like the magic a tube swap imparts on an amp..."like a completely different amp once I swapped tubes"...LOL! Subtle differences with this stuff to me, nothing significant.
Click to expand...
For the most part though, you have modern/recently built amps. Vintage amps reflect tube swaps to a much greater degree. The Naylor you have, that I ordered? Hardly noticed much difference when swapping tubes. Other than the obvious changes when running 6L6 vs EL34.
Same with pre tubes. New builds don't care much.
Which means, for you a much cheaper amp owning experience.
 
RaceU4her said:
i remember guys spraying new speakers with fabric softener back in the day trying to get them to break in faster :LOL: im actually surprised speaker companies never tried to profit more off "break in", like i could see a special batch of celestions called the "Masters" line or some bullshit thats been broken in with some special method or exotic fabric softener fine tuned to only allow the sweetest highs and creamy lows for $50 more per speaker, you know guys would buy them
Click to expand...
Avatar does this already; but doesn't charge an arm/leg for it.
 
Racerxrated said:
For the most part though, you have modern/recently built amps. Vintage amps reflect tube swaps to a much greater degree. The Naylor you have, that I ordered? Hardly noticed much difference when swapping tubes. Other than the obvious changes when running 6L6 vs EL34.
Same with pre tubes. New builds don't care much.
Which means, for you a much cheaper amp owning experience.
Click to expand...
This is true, haven't had too many vintage amps. I've tube swapped in the two late 70s JMPs I owned and even there, I didn't notice significant change. Great point, definitely saves a person from going down another costly rabbit hole, cause like everything, tubes aint getting any cheaper.
 
Racerxrated said:
For the most part though, you have modern/recently built amps. Vintage amps reflect tube swaps to a much greater degree. The Naylor you have, that I ordered? Hardly noticed much difference when swapping tubes. Other than the obvious changes when running 6L6 vs EL34.
Same with pre tubes. New builds don't care much.
Which means, for you a much cheaper amp owning experience.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I play with too much gain for it to matter I think, which I guess is good in a way, good tubes are expensive lol
 
Bram576 said:
Very cool video John. The only thing I could think of, and I may have missed it is how you have your mic placement exact as to not change the tone. Anyway cool video, appreciate the effort that goes into them!
Click to expand...
One thing to consider as well; our ears hear things differently in the room, vs ANY recording using any combination of mics/placement. So, we may still notice a change for the better/worse in the room, with our ears vs any recording of the same setup.
I appreciate this study/comparison, but the recording results still aren't the bottom line since we all hear things differently. So, someone can still notice a change when this study suggests there is none.
I'm still gonna trust my ears.

Edit: I should mention, I've only bought 1 new cab...an EVH ten yrs ago. I didn't notice a change over time after playing a few gigs with it. The rest of my cabs are used/vintage.
 
RaceU4her said:
ive not done a whole lot of tube swapping, but thats mostly cause i heard very little if any difference in what i have tried. ive seen a few tests now on both these subjects that kind of affirm what i was hearing. i talked to our amp guru here whos certified by all the big companies when the big tube scare was going on months ago, he thinks the tube thing is overblown an said just get JJ"s :dunno: people are gonna hear what they are gonna hear though, to me being comfortable is most important so if a label on tube or a certain number of hours on a speaker is what gets you rocking you gotta do it
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Yeah, I went down the tube rd. some years ago and for me, it wasn't wort the price of NOS or other more expensive tubes. Like you, I play with higher gain and the differences are likely negated to an extent. I've just stuck with JJ the last 8 years and have been happy, and TAD more recently.
 
FYI, the fabric softener spraying is a joke. Weber used to recommend it. It doesn't work, since the cone dries and the softener effect goes away with it.

The TGP had a thread the Jim Kelley amps were highlighted in. Jim came to my house (he lives 5 miles away from me in Prescott, AZ), and got four speakers. Two M75's, two SC75 alnicos. I broke in one M75 & SC75, the other two weren't broken in. Jim setup all kinds of test gear for measuring the hz, etc etc during the test. He concluded that the break in process smoothed out the high end, developed the mids and low end, and generally took the frequency response down 20hz, which is especially notable in the low mids and low end. Since Jim did it independently, I wasn't involved. He posted this info on the TGP last February. Since then there hasn't been a discussion thread about if break in is real or not.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...lley-amp-thread.2361960/page-19#post-36370925

I've been saying that break in is real, all of my touring players say they want extra break in. Of course, they're playing at louder levels than most of us, so unless you're playing at 30w or higher, the speaker will take a long time to break in. That's why I put them in a 4x12 cab and run them through a variac for 20-24 hours.

FWIW, FYI, YMMV, etc.
 
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rsm said:
a little off topic as it's not about speakers / break in...watching the Jim Lill videos was interesting to me. especially the amp tone vid. with the right / effective controls he was able to get similar tones of various amps...it seems a good EQ and knowing how to use it and your ears will give you many tones.

It's one of the reasons my new-to-me ISP Theta Pro MS preamp/effects unit is working and sounding great to me: pre- (3-band) and post- (5-band) semi-parametric EQs - it reminds me of my ADA MP-1 + MQ-1 which I replaced with a MP-2 which had the main / pre- EQ and a post-eq for each preset.

I'm wondering if a guitar preamp that is nothing more than three-four gain stages combined with a 20-band GEQ / 10-band PEQ would be able to do nearly every guitar tone imaginable?

for reference if you haven't seen it.

Click to expand...

I would say yes to types of sounds. But they would be different because every EQ has a flavor or coloring.

I tend to use the same basic sounds regardless of what gear I am using. Sure there is differences. But they are fundamentally the same basic sounds.

As far as duplication of sounds goes I don't believe exact duplication is possible because of basic physics. But types of sounds pretty much if the individual is familiar with the gear.
 
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Scumback Speakers said:
FYI, the fabric softener spraying is a joke. Weber used to recommend it. It doesn't work, since the cone dries and the softener effect goes away with it.

The TGP had a thread the Jim Kelley amps were highlighted in. Jim came to my house (he lives 5 miles away from me in Prescott, AZ), and got four speakers. Two M75's, two SC75 alnicos. I broke in one M75 & SC75, the other two weren't broken in. Jim setup all kinds of test gear for measuring the hz, etc etc during the test. He concluded that the break in process smoothed out the high end, developed the mids and low end, and generally took the frequency response down 20hz, which is especially notable in the low mids and low end. Since Jim did it independently, I wasn't involved. He posted this info on the TGP last February. Since then there hasn't been a discussion thread about if break in is real or not.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...lley-amp-thread.2361960/page-19#post-36370925

I've been saying that break in is real, all of my touring players say they want extra break in. Of course, they're playing at louder levels than most of us, so unless you're playing at 30w or higher, the speaker will take a long time to break in. That's why I put them in a 4x12 cab and run them through a variac for 20-24 hours.

FWIW, FYI, YMMV, etc.
Click to expand...
People that don't hear it are weirdos or uninitiated novices. I have a disdain for those that argue it, they trigger the disgust sensitivity.
 
I'm currently breaking in several different speakers the old fashion way. With time and volume. I'm using some pretty heavy bass often. Actually most of the time.

I'm pretty sure I am hearing changes. Similar to my previous experience of speaker break in. Similar to what Jim Kelly and others found.

I think not using enough bottom in this test might been a strong factor in the results.
 
RaceU4her said:
i remember guys spraying new speakers with fabric softener back in the day trying to get them to break in faster :LOL: im actually surprised speaker companies never tried to profit more off "break in", like i could see a special batch of celestions called the "Masters" line or some bullshit thats been broken in with some special method or exotic fabric softener fine tuned to only allow the sweetest highs and creamy lows for $50 more per speaker, you know guys would buy them
Click to expand...
Hellatone Speakers did this with V30's. Pre-broken in V30's.
 
stephen sawall said:
I'm currently breaking in several different speakers the old fashion way. With time and volume. I'm using some pretty heavy bass often. Actually most of the time.

I'm pretty sure I am hearing changes. Similar to my previous experience of speaker break in. Similar to what Jim Kelly and others found.

I think not using enough bottom in this test might been a strong factor in the results.
Click to expand...
I like to use Meshuggah and Deadmau5.
 
MetalHeadMike said:
Kind of like the magic a tube swap imparts on an amp..."like a completely different amp once I swapped tubes"...LOL! Subtle differences with this stuff to me, nothing significant.
Click to expand...
I agree, i've never noticed anything other than very subtle differences between tube brands or NOS or even el34's vs 6l6's... some amps have a built in EQ that changes the sound when a different type of power tube goes in. I believe the Dual Rectifier does this. Trickery.
 
Scumback Speakers said:
FYI, the fabric softener spraying is a joke. Weber used to recommend it. It doesn't work, since the cone dries and the softener effect goes away with it.
Click to expand...
Just how moist should my speakers be to get maximal tone.
More dripping or gushing is best ?

I tend to use a Saturn V engine as a point of reference to the punch and velocity I am looking for...
20160709_131320.jpg
 
You think the Avatar guy gets a chuckle when he sees threads like this? (having been doing this for years and already knowing full well how it affects the tone)
Or do you think he just offers the service because he knows so many people believe in the break-in change?

I'll bet on the first choice, but I personally have never noticed the break-in with cabs that I purchased brand new. Makes sense not to notice since it would be slowly changing over time, not abruptly.

Avatar;
We start with a stock great sounding classic 60 watt Celestion Vintage 30s . We then convert it into a Hellatone by exercising the suspension for 15 hours so when you get it, it has a warmer tone on the very first note. This process warms up the low end and smooths out the midrange slightly. The Hellatone model 60 really projects and is great for all kinds of music, especially Rock and Metal! Large heavy 50 oz magnet!
 
Scumback Speakers said:
FYI, the fabric softener spraying is a joke. Weber used to recommend it. It doesn't work, since the cone dries and the softener effect goes away with it.

The TGP had a thread the Jim Kelley amps were highlighted in. Jim came to my house (he lives 5 miles away from me in Prescott, AZ), and got four speakers. Two M75's, two SC75 alnicos. I broke in one M75 & SC75, the other two weren't broken in. Jim setup all kinds of test gear for measuring the hz, etc etc during the test. He concluded that the break in process smoothed out the high end, developed the mids and low end, and generally took the frequency response down 20hz, which is especially notable in the low mids and low end. Since Jim did it independently, I wasn't involved. He posted this info on the TGP last February. Since then there hasn't been a discussion thread about if break in is real or not.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...lley-amp-thread.2361960/page-19#post-36370925

I've been saying that break in is real, all of my touring players say they want extra break in. Of course, they're playing at louder levels than most of us, so unless you're playing at 30w or higher, the speaker will take a long time to break in. That's why I put them in a 4x12 cab and run them through a variac for 20-24 hours.

FWIW, FYI, YMMV, etc.
Click to expand...
i was hoping you’d chime in. i find it so obvious how break in affects guitar speakers, if someone says they don’t hear it and feel it, it’s likely just a lack of experience.

same with tubes. if someone doesn’t know what they’re listening for and feeling the differences in performance, it doesn’t make them a bad person. they just have less experience discerning those things.

btw what is the closest thing you have to a quad of 25-30 watt blackbacks?

ps love your speakers!!
 
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