Why is my Mark III so SLOW!?

[GJgo]

So in another thread I've been working on a bunch of (triple track) reamps. When I got to the new-to-me '89 Mark III I could hear in the playback that the tracking seemed... slow. So, I had a look at the stems. The IIB, IIC+, IVb and Triple Recto G/C all line up perfectly. The Mark III however was in fact tracking slow- 0.052 seconds (52 milliseconds) slow to be exact.

What do you guys think could be causing this? It's all stock and pristine which makes me think it spent decades in a closet. Could this be from tired caps? If so, that could explain the "stiffness" a lot of guys complain of after a cap job. Maybe I'll get it a cap job & re-test.

To clarify, the IIB and IIC+ got a full recap in the last few years, and the IVb and Triple were late 90s and don't need one yet.

 

[glpg80]

Too low of a B+ voltage in the preamp can do that. Either due to drifted resistors too far or failing filter caps pulling the B+ down. Something wrong with the heater circuit shows similar symptoms too. Did it need to be turned up further to equalize volume for recording?

 

[GJgo]

Now that you mention it, at band practice it did seem like I was really turning the volume up compared to my other Marks. The bottom end was also a bit weak and undefined in comparison. When I look at the reamp settings photos it's hard to compare against the same volume settings on a Coli...

 

[Greazygeo]

Try running it’s preamp into one of your other amp’s power sections. And then another preamp into it’s power section. See if you find either way better/ worse.

Could be too much low end causing more sag on a weak power section.

 

[glpg80]

Now that you mention it, at band practice it did seem like I was really turning the volume up compared to my other Marks. The bottom end was also a bit weak and undefined in comparison. When I look at the reamp settings photos it's hard to compare against the same volume settings on a Coli...

Yeah somethings up in the power supply. I suggest getting it looked over before something goes from bad to worse.

 

[Brandonrz]

I would really look at your daw before the amp honestly. This looks like a studio thing and not an amp thing. Try doing it again. Make sure everything is good with your buffer size and sample rate. If you scooch back the audio to the other clips is it in time with them, to just my eyes it is.

I’ll add there’s been times I’ve had my master bus enabled or something while reamping and the extra processing slowed it down.

 

[GJgo]

I would really look at your daw before the amp honestly. This looks like a studio thing and not an amp thing. Try doing it again. Make sure everything is good with your buffer size and sample rate. If you scooch back the audio to the other clips is it in time with them, to just my eyes it is.

I’ll add there’s been times I’ve had my master bus enabled or something while reamping and the extra processing slowed it down.

That's an interesting thought, however I'm doing nothing other than switching amps. Maybe I'll re-do another amp today & see if it's repeatable.

 

[Ben Waylin]

Audio interface/DAW latency issue.

 

[GJgo]

@Bram576 @Arch Stanton you guys are the winners! I went back to re-test & I see what happened. My DAW "forgot" what audio interface it was using and the sample rate was wrong. Once I re-set this in the setup, re-tracking was exactly where it was supposed to be.

Thanks guys.

 

[Brandonrz]

@Bram576 @Arch Stanton you guys are the winners! I went back to re-test & I see what happened. My DAW "forgot" what audio interface it was using and the sample rate was wrong. Once I re-set this in the setup, re-tracking was exactly where it was supposed to be.

Thanks guys.

Happy to help. Learning this kind of stuff when I was starting drove me nuts lol.

 

[VESmedic]

@Bram576 @Arch Stanton you guys are the winners! I went back to re-test & I see what happened. My DAW "forgot" what audio interface it was using and the sample rate was wrong. Once I re-set this in the setup, re-tracking was exactly where it was supposed to be.

Thanks guys.

This happens to me all the time, my apogee ensemble will do this if im
Not careful switching between daws especially for whatever reason. For the record an amp should never actually be “slow” when recording or playing etc, the amp itself anyways. Analog doesn’t have latency, there is no conversion from analog to digital or digital to analog etc. so from the source, that will never be the issue. Latency is caused by conversion. Just something to remember when troubleshooting issues. Now, an amp can “feel” slow ( unboosted recto, overdriven fender tweed, power amp distortion in general etc) but it won’t actually be slow to track, if that makes sense

 

[Ben Waylin]

@Bram576 @Arch Stanton you guys are the winners! I went back to re-test & I see what happened. My DAW "forgot" what audio interface it was using and the sample rate was wrong. Once I re-set this in the setup, re-tracking was exactly where it was supposed to be.

Thanks guys.

 

[VonBonfire]

What do you guys think could be causing this? It's all stock and pristine which makes me think it spent decades in a closet. Could this be from tired caps? If so, that could explain the "stiffness" a lot of guys complain of after a cap job. Maybe I'll get it a cap job & re-test.

I probably wouldn't have even run a 1989 all bone stock amp without having it checked out first. If it doesn't need new caps right this minute it will soon. It's just a matter of time and regular usage. It's true, new caps are incredibly stiff and awful sounding. Hi-fi, like a bad solid state amp. Makes the first few gigs on it pretty much suck. Changing out cathode bypass resistors does the same thing IME.

 

[glpg80]

@Bram576 @Arch Stanton you guys are the winners! I went back to re-test & I see what happened. My DAW "forgot" what audio interface it was using and the sample rate was wrong. Once I re-set this in the setup, re-tracking was exactly where it was supposed to be.

Thanks guys.

Glad you got it figured out and it’s not the amp!

 

[Racerxrated]

I probably wouldn't have even run a 1989 all bone stock amp without having it checked out first. If it doesn't need new caps right this minute it will soon. It's just a matter of time and regular usage. It's true, new caps are incredibly stiff and awful sounding. Hi-fi, like a bad solid state amp. Makes the first few gigs on it pretty much suck. Changing out cathode bypass resistors does the same thing IME.

Depends on the amp. Yes, visually inspecting filter caps for bulges, leaks etc. The 60 yr old Daly, 40 yr old LCRs in Marshalls are still going strong. As long as the amp was used every 6 months or so.
As Larry said, "those old Marshall caps have unusually long life."
But, if you don't know the history of the amp then I'd bring the power up slowly on an attenuator. Just to be safe.

 

[VonBonfire]

Depends on the amp. Yes, visually inspecting filter caps for bulges, leaks etc. The 60 yr old Daly, 40 yr old LCRs in Marshalls are still going strong. As long as the amp was used every 6 months or so.
As Larry said, "those old Marshall caps have unusually long life."
But, if you don't know the history of the amp then I'd bring the power up slowly on an attenuator. Just to be safe.

40 or 50 year old caps, regardless of quality manufacture, are living on borrowed time. Not trying to be combative, and I get the nature of collectible all original amps, and it makes sense in that regard, but for me personally if I can't beat the shit out of it and have it be reliable I would just as soon throw the original stuff in a bag and get some new caps in there because I don't collect. There are definitely tonal changes that happen but I think overall it's pretty minimal once you burn in the new components. I almost went nuts once trying to sort out the harshness of new cathode bypass resistors until the tech told me to suck it up and go play the amp. Sure enough, by the end of the second gig it sounded great.

 

[glpg80]

I probably wouldn't have even run a 1989 all bone stock amp without having it checked out first. If it doesn't need new caps right this minute it will soon. It's just a matter of time and regular usage. It's true, new caps are incredibly stiff and awful sounding. Hi-fi, like a bad solid state amp. Makes the first few gigs on it pretty much suck. Changing out cathode bypass resistors does the same thing IME.

This is sound advice and a good summary to the thread. Although the primary problem wasn’t directly due to the amp itself it’s still a good idea to get a 1988/89 era amplifier recapped before bad things happen. I got my 74 cheap because a cap leaked corrosive acidic 1970’s cancerous electrolytic all over the internal chassis and it ate through switches and wiring. You don’t want to have to do more work due to neglect.

Long story short still get the amp looked over and all electrolytic caps changed out. If you hang by the balls of tan pants collectors then have the parts placed in a bag and stapled shut with a wax seal containing the blood of the amp tech for purity.

In all seriousness maintain your shit or it will fuck up. It’s only a matter of time.

 

[Techdeth]

Mine had bad caps and sounded like shit . Mike B serviced it and since then it’s amazing sounding

 

[Racerxrated]

40 or 50 year old caps, regardless of quality manufacture, are living on borrowed time. Not trying to be combative, and I get the nature of collectible all original amps, and it makes sense in that regard, but for me personally if I can't beat the shit out of it and have it be reliable I would just as soon throw the original stuff in a bag and get some new caps in there because I don't collect. There are definitely tonal changes that happen but I think overall it's pretty minimal once you burn in the new components. I almost went nuts once trying to sort out the harshness of new cathode bypass resistors until the tech told me to suck it up and go play the amp. Sure enough, by the end of the second gig it sounded great.

I don't collect. I play them every day. It isn't a matter of 'tan pants' anything. Original caps, if healthy, sound better. Filter caps DO sound/feel different between brands. ARS are the closest to the real deal Daly/LCRs in Marshalls, so if you're going to change them, use those. F&T sound different and feel different.

It's all about tone, for me anyway. This rinse/repeat bullshit about GOTTA CHANGE THEM CAPS! OR ELSE!! thing is subjective to the amp itself. Just changing them because they're old is wasting money, at least in an old Marshall. That's what the 'tech heads' will pound on the table and shout at the highest point, because they think they know everything. Pretty typical. It's like some engineers I know. Smart people, but they claim to know damn near everything about any subject you might talk about. They don't.

Not every vintage amp needs cap changes. Out of 60 or so stock/modded vintage (pre 1990) Marshalls, only 1 needed them changed. One was leaking. ARS in, LCRs out. Sounded great. If the vintage Marshall has good output/thump, like it should, they don't need it.

On the Marshall forum, there's a few guys that have stocks of original Mustards, Phillips, LCR/Hunts/Daly caps, and a number of original 60s Dagnall/Drake Iron. These guys restore 60s Marshalls using original stock parts.
They all say the same thing. Unless the caps are leaking/bulging no need to change them. Techs, like mechanics want the cash of course. Like changing brake fluid ( )....another clown show recommendation that's a complete waste of cash.

This only pertains to old Marshalls. Other brands, I can't comment on. Probably need to change them.

 

[GJgo]

This happens to me all the time, my apogee ensemble will do this if im not careful switching between daws especially for whatever reason. For the record an amp should never actually be “slow” when recording or playing etc, the amp itself anyways. Analog doesn’t have latency, there is no conversion from analog to digital or digital to analog etc. so from the source, that will never be the issue. Latency is caused by conversion. Just something to remember when troubleshooting issues. Now, an amp can “feel” slow ( unboosted recto, overdriven fender tweed, power amp distortion in general etc) but it won’t actually be slow to track, if that makes sense

Thanks, this makes perfect sense in hindsight. Seeing the Recto vs. the Mark in the stem is an eye opener for what we think "feels " slow.