Amp Build: Marshall 1959T – "Bay Area Thrash" Langner Mod

[Mad Axe]

I’ve often thought of having something like this done with my ‘71 since I don’t use the tremolo or have a foot switch but I do also love it as it is.

Kind of off topic, but on a stock amp is the extra tube still in the signal path when the tremolo isn’t engaged? My amp can get pretty brutal with the right boost and I was always curious if that had anything to do with it or not.

 

[Racerxrated]

I’ve often thought of having something like this done with my ‘71 since I don’t use the tremolo or have a foot switch but I do also love it as it is.

Kind of off topic, but on a stock amp is the extra tube still in the signal path when the tremolo isn’t engaged? My amp can get pretty brutal with the right boost and I was always curious if that had anything to do with it or not.

So, I tried my Trem with/without the pre tube installed (V1 L-R looking at the back of the amp) and I noticed no difference in sound. So, I pulled the tube since unless you want the tremolo engaged, it didn't change anything. V2, 3 and 4 are the 3 pre tubes for the circuit sans Trem.

I loved boosting my 72 with either Griff's Tone Ripper distortion(based on a BE OD), where the vol on the pedal acts as a MV, or double boosting with 2 OD pedals. Ripping tone. My plan was to find a not original early 70s SL for Mike to mod; but when I found a 68 SuperTrem for a deal the 72 became the one to mod.

 

[RedPlated]

Looks great man. Good to see some other guys like you and Matt modding amps now. It’s so good for people to have variety and choices.

 

[harddriver]

Here's a teaser for Racer..................................

 

[Mad Axe]

So, I tried my Trem with/without the pre tube installed (V1 L-R looking at the back of the amp) and I noticed no difference in sound. So, I pulled the tube since unless you want the tremolo engaged, it didn't change anything. V2, 3 and 4 are the 3 pre tubes for the circuit sans Trem.

I loved boosting my 72 with either Griff's Tone Ripper distortion(based on a BE OD), where the vol on the pedal acts as a MV, or double boosting with 2 OD pedals. Ripping tone. My plan was to find a not original early 70s SL for Mike to mod; but when I found a 68 SuperTrem for a deal the 72 became the one to mod.

I put a regular 800 style master in mine and have been boosting it with either a VFE Dragon or Standout, both of those pedals have so much output I haven’t had the urge to try double boosting yet.

I have been intrigued by the Langner stuff for a while but this one is my only vintage Marshall, I’ll probably end up doing like you originally planned and find something else to mod if I ever want to take the plunge.

 

[FourT6and2]

Here's a teaser for Racer..................................

I worked on that first amp; I know it very well

 

[thegame]

Finally Racer can throw his boost pedals away

 

[FourT6and2]

More progress today. Got most of V1 wired up, just waiting on some additional caps to arrive. This amp is looking cleaner now that some of the original wiring has been tidied up a bit.

 

[wIsEbLooD]

very nice.

 

[harddriver]

Are you going to need to add additional filtering for the extra two gain stages? Just curious?

I know I didn't when I added a fourth gain stage I just tapped the B+ off of the V1/V2 rail and it was fine.

 

[JTyson]

So, I tried my Trem with/without the pre tube installed (V1 L-R looking at the back of the amp) and I noticed no difference in sound. So, I pulled the tube since unless you want the tremolo engaged, it didn't change anything. V2, 3 and 4 are the 3 pre tubes for the circuit sans Trem.

I loved boosting my 72 with either Griff's Tone Ripper distortion(based on a BE OD), where the vol on the pedal acts as a MV, or double boosting with 2 OD pedals. Ripping tone. My plan was to find a not original early 70s SL for Mike to mod; but when I found a 68 SuperTrem for a deal the 72 became the one to mod.

I listened to your Bandcamp tunes, which are very cool btw, and I can tell you first hand the 5 stage Langner circuit would be perfect for those types of tones. More aggressive gain with a lower noise floor than you can possibly get boosted (IMO) is hard to beat for those types of tones. It is slightly more compressed, but in a good way. If you listen to “Down to the Temple” by Viscous Rumors, it’s that exact tone. I would put up that song in this post but I can’t remember how to do it


I can certainly admire not wanting to molest a vintage Marshall, but I’ve had it done multiple times and as of yet not regretted it at all. I think it really boils down to where you spend most of your time in your musical context and wether or not you would be happy with what you had vs what you could have.
I’ve had to go back and re record things I spent a lot of time on due to it being so much better in the context of the song.
I will say the only drawback of 5 gain stages that I ever ran into was it’s never gonna cut through in a live context as good as 3, even boosted. I don’t think that’s unique to the Langner circuit, it’s just the nature of any amp that has that level of saturation. When I saw Viscous Rumors both guitar players used those amps so it was a pretty level field for them in a mix context. If your the only guitar player in your band it’s a non issue.
Just my 2cents

 

[JTyson]

@Racerxrated sent me his '72 Marshall 1959T Super Tremolo for a 5-gain stage mod. This one is inspired by Langner's work with the DCP-1 and various Marshall mods he did, combined with a few of my own little tricks. As on homage to Todd Langner and the history of trash metal in the SF Bay Area, I'm calling it the "Bay Area Thrash" mod (B.A.T.). It's currently a work in progress, so follow along for updates in real time!

The Super Trem makes a great platform for added tube gain stages because it already has the additional preamp socket installed AND it has an extended turret board for the trem circuit, while retaining everything a regular Super Lead has. So if the owner doesn't mind getting rid of the tremolo, it's a perfect donor amp.

I received the amp this past Monday and got to work testing it to make sure it was 100% functional before starting the mod. Then I spent a couple days in Photoshop, adapting the B.A.T. mod I previously did for @Exo-metal for the Super Trem layout. This is really the meat and potatoes of the mod—the homework. It takes a good deal of planning and drawing and puzzle solving to figure out how to take an idea from concept to schematic, to layout, and then to a finished product.

Despite the mileage this amp has seen, it seems strong. So I got to work...

Stock-ish amp as it came to me:

View attachment 397490

View attachment 397492

Mike, just a question by an idiot who doesn’t build amps, I have always noticed a huge difference in the midrange control on the DCP 1 that I have vs the modded Marshall’s I have that were the 5 gain stage Langner circuit. The DCP 1 midrange control will literally rip your face off, where the Marshalls were more what you would normally expect. Are the DCP1 tone circuits active?
What the hell is the difference?

 

[FourT6and2]

Are you going to need to add additional filtering for the extra two gain stages? Just curious?

I know I didn't when I added a fourth gain stage I just tapped the B+ off of the V1/V2 rail and it was fine.

You know... I was just thinking about this yesterday.

The Langner-modded Marshall schematics I've seen didn't have extra filtering. And the actual amps I've seen didn't either. The DCP-1 does have 22uF filter caps for each additional stage. But that's a little different than a modified amp. I will play it and see how it sounds. If it needs extra filtering, I'll have to find a way to implement that. Like you said, I'm tapping B+ off the V1a/b node, at the top of the 100K plate resistors. Maybe something simple like an axial 22uF can provide a little extra sauce.

Here's the 1959T schematic: https://schematicheaven.net/marshallamps/jmp_lead_tremolo_100w_1959t.pdf

The trem circuit's B+ is originally tapped between PI and CF. Now I'm wondering if it's better to tap it there or at the top of (old) V1's 100K plates. Interesting. Easy enough to try it both ways I suppose. Just a matter of moving one wire.

 

[FourT6and2]

I listened to your Bandcamp tunes, which are very cool btw, and I can tell you first hand the 5 stage Langner circuit would be perfect for those types of tones. More aggressive gain with a lower noise floor than you can possibly get boosted (IMO) is hard to beat for those types of tones. It is slightly more compressed, but in a good way. If you listen to “Down to the Temple” by Viscous Rumors, it’s that exact tone. I would put up that song in this post but I can’t remember how to do it


I can certainly admire not wanting to molest a vintage Marshall, but I’ve had it done multiple times and as of yet not regretted it at all. I think it really boils down to where you spend most of your time in your musical context and wether or not you would be happy with what you had vs what you could have.
I’ve had to go back and re record things I spent a lot of time on due to it being so much better in the context of the song.
I will say the only drawback of 5 gain stages that I ever ran into was it’s never gonna cut through in a live context as good as 3, even boosted. I don’t think that’s unique to the Langner circuit, it’s just the nature of any amp that has that level of saturation. When I saw Viscous Rumors both guitar players used those amps so it was a pretty level field for them in a mix context. If your the only guitar player in your band it’s a non issue.
Just my 2cents

Agreed. 5 stages is A LOT of gain!

 

[thegame]

I listened to your Bandcamp tunes, which are very cool btw, and I can tell you first hand the 5 stage Langner circuit would be perfect for those types of tones. More aggressive gain with a lower noise floor than you can possibly get boosted (IMO) is hard to beat for those types of tones. It is slightly more compressed, but in a good way. If you listen to “Down to the Temple” by Viscous Rumors, it’s that exact tone. I would put up that song in this post but I can’t remember how to do it


I can certainly admire not wanting to molest a vintage Marshall, but I’ve had it done multiple times and as of yet not regretted it at all. I think it really boils down to where you spend most of your time in your musical context and wether or not you would be happy with what you had vs what you could have.
I’ve had to go back and re record things I spent a lot of time on due to it being so much better in the context of the song.
I will say the only drawback of 5 gain stages that I ever ran into was it’s never gonna cut through in a live context as good as 3, even boosted. I don’t think that’s unique to the Langner circuit, it’s just the nature of any amp that has that level of saturation. When I saw Viscous Rumors both guitar players used those amps so it was a pretty level field for them in a mix context. If your the only guitar player in your band it’s a non issue.
Just my 2cents

I’m not a tech but we’re on the same page. Doing an extensive mod/rebuild such as this on an amp that already sounds awesome is the way to go. The better sounding the donor amp is the better the final outcome will be (assuming an experienced tech is doing it). Chances are it’ll sound better than any new production high gain amp. Amps that have both vintage and modern traits to them are the best IMO.

 

[braintheory]

I listened to your Bandcamp tunes, which are very cool btw, and I can tell you first hand the 5 stage Langner circuit would be perfect for those types of tones. More aggressive gain with a lower noise floor than you can possibly get boosted (IMO) is hard to beat for those types of tones. It is slightly more compressed, but in a good way. If you listen to “Down to the Temple” by Viscous Rumors, it’s that exact tone. I would put up that song in this post but I can’t remember how to do it


I can certainly admire not wanting to molest a vintage Marshall, but I’ve had it done multiple times and as of yet not regretted it at all. I think it really boils down to where you spend most of your time in your musical context and wether or not you would be happy with what you had vs what you could have.
I’ve had to go back and re record things I spent a lot of time on due to it being so much better in the context of the song.
I will say the only drawback of 5 gain stages that I ever ran into was it’s never gonna cut through in a live context as good as 3, even boosted. I don’t think that’s unique to the Langner circuit, it’s just the nature of any amp that has that level of saturation. When I saw Viscous Rumors both guitar players used those amps so it was a pretty level field for them in a mix context. If your the only guitar player in your band it’s a non issue.
Just my 2cents

I don’t have any evidence, but was told the Langner modded Marshall I had was made for/owned by Vicious Rumors and listening to that song you mentioned, it sounded just like that when I had. To me it was kind of like a more pissed off, greasy Cameron Aldrich mod I had with some of its own thing. I actually AB’ed it with quite a few Cameron modded Marshall’s and thought it was like a better, angrier version of them in sound and feel. For a while after having gone through almost all the known Marshall modders felt a good stock Marshall boosted was just better and less distant sounding, but then that Langner changed my mind in that the right mod actually can be better (for aggressive high gain tones at least)

 

[braintheory]

I’m not a tech but we’re on the same page. Doing an extensive mod/rebuild such as this on an amp that already sounds awesome is the way to go. The better sounding the donor amp is the better the final outcome will be (assuming an experienced tech is doing it). Chances are it’ll sound better than any new production high gain amp. Amps that have both vintage and modern traits to them are the best IMO.

I’d generally agree with that (just a few exceptions), but if this ends up sounding anything like the Langner mod I used to have then there would be nothing modern sounding about it whatsoever. It was pure ‘80’s imo

I’m a huge believer in optimizing the donor amp too from what I’ve had and love modern when actually done well

 

[FourT6and2]

Mike, just a question by an idiot who doesn’t build amps, I have always noticed a huge difference in the midrange control on the DCP 1 that I have vs the modded Marshall’s I have that were the 5 gain stage Langner circuit. The DCP 1 midrange control will literally rip your face off, where the Marshalls were more what you would normally expect. Are the DCP1 tone circuits active?
What the hell is the difference?

If the schematic I have is accurate, there are a few reasons this might be the case. The tone stack in the DCP-1 is the same design as you'd find in a Marshall. But the values are different. There are two stacks, both with the same values but one is cathode-drive, then other is plate-driven.

Slope resistor: 56K
Treble cap: 270pF
Bass cap: 0.1uF
Mid cap: 0.056uF
Treble pot: 200K
Bass pot: 200K
Mid pot: 25K

If we look at this setup in isolation, it would actually scoop the crap out of the signal. So something else must be pushing mids. Langner cut highs a TON in every stage with low-pass filters, sending highs to ground. 1500pF first stage, 1500pF second stage, 820pF third stage, and 680pF fourth stage. In the Marshall mods, it was a little more subdued. The DCP-1 also has some mid-boosting voicing choices, for example the 22nF and 560K bypass after the coupler in the first stage. That said, other than the additional tone-shaping controls on the unit, I don't see anything that jumps out at me with a quick glance as to why the mid control would be so sensitive. But I can have a closer look and report back.

 

[thegame]

I’d generally agree with that (just a few exceptions), but if this ends up sounding anything like the Langner mod I used to have then there would be nothing modern sounding about it whatsoever. It was pure ‘80’s imo

I’m a huge believer in optimizing the donor amp too from what I’ve had and love modern when actually done well

I’m old so cut me some slack! That type of tone is still modern to me lol. Amps you term modern now I call futuristic, as in they’re not in my present or future

 

[harddriver]

You know... I was just thinking about this yesterday.

The Langner-modded Marshall schematics I've seen didn't have extra filtering. And the actual amps I've seen didn't either. The DCP-1 does have 22uF filter caps for each additional stage. But that's a little different than a modified amp. I will play it and see how it sounds. If it needs extra filtering, I'll have to find a way to implement that. Like you said, I'm tapping B+ off the V1a/b node, at the top of the 100K plate resistors. Maybe something simple like an axial 22uF can provide a little extra sauce.

Here's the 1959T schematic: https://schematicheaven.net/marshallamps/jmp_lead_tremolo_100w_1959t.pdf

The trem circuit's B+ is originally tapped between PI and CF. Now I'm wondering if it's better to tap it there or at the top of (old) V1's 100K plates. Interesting. Easy enough to try it both ways I suppose. Just a matter of moving one wire.

Here is my 4 gain stage build I did in 2010 that I just used the filtering on the V1 B+ node. It went through alot of changes since these pictures until it ended up in it's final form. It got elevated heaters, NFB control, Depth mod.