Celestion H75 Creambacks vs M65 Creambacks

[FourT6and2]

I've had G12H-75 Creambacks (8 ohm) in a Bogner straight 4x12 for many years. It's my go-to cab. I have another, similar Bogner cab that came with V30s. I just got some M65 Creambacks (new), also 8 ohm to replace the V30s. I figured the M and H would be similar—and they are in some ways. But the M65s have very little low-end punch. They just sound soft and round and loose. At least so far. Their timbre is nice. Similar to an M25 Greenback. Musical, grinding mid range and the highs are smooth, not quite as prominent as the H75s. But the H75s have a massive, hard-hitting, powerful low end. The M65s just sound weak in comparison. Even M25 Greenbacks hit harder.

Has this been other's experience as well? Or do they just need to break in more?

Both cabs wired the same. Same wire. Same polarity. Same phase. I use a quality torque wrench to torque the speaker mounting bolts to 8 in/lb in every cab I own. So there's no variance there.

 

[braintheory]

I would agree with much of this. IME the H75 and M65 Creambacks are bit like higher wattage counterparts to H30’s and M25 Greenbacks respectively. The M magnet celestions IME generally have better quality midrange tone, but weaker, softer lows and highs. The H magnets ones seem to have a distinctly hollow midrange quality to me, but stronger, punchier lows and highs. I’m honestly not crazy about either speaker, but can see why the H75’s would work well in the Bogner cab and the amps used with it

V30’s and Redbacks are also H magnets, but somehow I still really like the midrange of Redbacks, especially their chewy low mids

 

[thegame]

I've had G12H-75 Creambacks (8 ohm) in a Bogner straight 4x12 for many years. It's my go-to cab. I have another, similar Bogner cab that came with V30s. I just got some M65 Creambacks (new), also 8 ohm to replace the V30s. I figured the M and H would be similar—and they are in some ways. But the M65s have very little low-end punch. They just sound soft and round and loose. At least so far. Their timbre is nice. Similar to an M25 Greenback. Musical, grinding mid range and the highs are smooth, not quite as prominent as the H75s. But the H75s have a massive, hard-hitting, powerful low end. The M65s just sound weak in comparison. Even M25 Greenbacks hit harder.

Has this been other's experience as well? Or do they just need to break in more?

Both cabs wired the same. Same wire. Same polarity. Same phase. I use a quality torque wrench to torque the speaker mounting bolts to 8 in/lb in every cab I own. So there's no variance there.

Do both Bogner cabs sound the same? Perhaps swap each speaker set to see if some of those traits follow the speakers or influence the other speaker set. I had two “matching” Bogner 4x12s for almost 20 years. They sounded very similar (obviously) but one was 10-15% tighter, more immediate with more midrange. I preferred this one over the other which had deeper but looser lows and more warmth and smoothness. I could see most players preferring one over the other though. Of course I swapped two identical quads of speakers (8 Marshall Vintages and 8 G12-80s) over the years which ruled out speaker inconsistencies. The tonal difference remained in the cabs after the swaps. Even knocking on the top of both cabs in the same spot brought out different, dominant resonant frequencies. The tighter sounding cab produced a higher pitch and the looser one a lower pitched tone, very similar to a drum roll going from higher to lower toms.

 

[glpg80]

I like the grinding mids of the Creamback M65’s. However I also agree that M65’s seem to roll off a significant amount of low end. I think the M65 would mix well with Splawn small blocks for low end duty. I don’t really like the sound of Creamback H75’s recorded as their top end seems piercing.

I’ve wanted to experiment with mixing non-vented T-75’s and H75’s in the same cabinet that’s insulated.

I just don’t like redback recordings at all full stop. It’s just not voiced in the mids where I personally prefer a speaker to be.

 

[FourT6and2]

The M magnet celestions IME generally have better quality midrange tone, but weaker, softer lows and highs. The H magnets ones seem to have a distinctly hollow midrange quality to me, but stronger, punchier lows and highs.

Both have similar mid-range grind. But I just hot-swapped back and forth between each cab and the H75s sound so much better. More clarity, less "smooshed together" as my girlfriend just said after I had her listen to both. She said the Bogner cab with M65s sounds like an old car radio haha. It's not that bad, but that was her non-musician way of describing it. The M65s are looser, quieter (less efficient), and while their high end isn't as extended, they seem a little fizzier.

The H75s are tighter, and have more growl/grind. But it could be because they have a few years of play time on them.

 

[FourT6and2]

Do both Bogner cabs sound the same? Perhaps swap each speaker set to see if some of those traits follow the speakers or influence the other speaker set. I had two “matching” Bogner 4x12s for almost 20 years. They sounded very similar (obviously) but one was 10-15% tighter, more immediate with more midrange. I preferred this one over the other which had deeper but looser lows and more warmth and smoothness. I could see most players preferring one over the other though. Of course I swapped two identical quads of speakers (8 Marshall Vintages and 8 G12-80s) over the years which ruled out speaker inconsistencies. The tonal difference remained in the cabs after the swaps. Even knocking on the top of both cabs in the same spot brought out different, dominant resonant frequencies. The tighter sounding cab produced a higher pitch and the looser one a lower pitched tone, very similar to a drum roll going from higher to lower toms.

I'm not gonna swap the speakers because the H75 cab sounds SO good. I don't want to risk messing with it haha. But I just tapped on both cabs (top, back, sides) and I don't hear any signifiant difference.

 

[FourT6and2]

I don’t really like the sound of Creamback H75’s recorded as their top end seems piercing.

I don't hear any piercing highs in mine. But I've heard people say that about H75s. I wonder if it's an 8/16ohm thing

 

[braintheory]

Both have similar mid-range grind. But I just hot-swapped back and forth between each cab and the H75s sound so much better. More clarity, less "smooshed together" as my girlfriend just said after I had her listen to both. She said the Bogner cab with M65s sounds like an old car radio haha. It's not that bad, but that was her non-musician way of describing it. The M65s are looser, quieter (less efficient), and while their high end isn't as extended, they seem a little fizzier.

The H75s are tighter, and have more growl/grind. But it could be because they have a few years of play time on them.

I agree other than maybe them having more growl, but like you said maybe it’s because they’re more broken in. For me the hollow H magnet sound bothers my ears a bit, but that can also I think get a little better with break in. In general I find lower wattage speakers have more grind, but sound smaller/thinner, especially the 20w Greenbacks. One of my all time favorite, most grindy, aggressive speakers I’ve played, like a chainsaw, but very lean/shallow low end. I like them in beefier cabs or with beefier speakers below it like JBL’s

 

[braintheory]

I don't hear any piercing highs in mine. But I've heard people say that about H75s. I wonder if it's an 8/16ohm thing

Mine were still 16ohm. I didn’t find them piercing or harsh. Actually pretty smooth to me, but something about its upper mids I found a bit whiny or annoying. I think it was that sound juxtaposed with its distinctly hollow H magnet midrange that gives that affect I didn’t care for

 

[EyesOfTheSouth!]

I don’t like either……but I especially hate the M65 for the same reason you described. They sound nothing like a greenback or EVH to my ears. Too soft and smeared.

People say the V30/M65 mix sounds good. I briefly had a Helios 2x12 like that and the V30 covered the m65 suck.

 

[FourT6and2]

I don’t like either……but I especially hate the M65 for the same reason you described. They sound nothing like a greenback or EVH to my ears. Too soft and smeared.

People say the V30/M65 mix sounds good. I briefly had a Helios 2x12 like that and the V30 covered the m65 suck.

I might just go back to regular Greenbacks in this other cab then. Too bad you can't return speakers lol.

 

[PDC]

It might be a 'break-in' thing and it might be a cabinet thing. I definitely prefer the M65 Creamback - great sounding mids. I also have the experience that the H75 Creamback has better / tighter / punchier lows - but more treble than I like and really hollow mids. I love the M65 with the V30. For my ear, that combo works. But so, so many other variables (amp, guitar, pickups, eq on the floor in front of the amp or in the loop, etc etc) affecting the final 'sound' coming off the cones.

I did have a quad of M65s out of the box and they did take a good long time to really soften up and breathe. Split the quad and running V-30s with them in an 'X' pattern in a straight front cab and its really, really good.

 

[ZEN Amps]

Yeah they are a bit of a soft sounding speaker, especially if you're directly comparing them to the liveliness of an H75 and the sting of a V30.

And although the 8 vs 16Ω thing isn't huge, it's still noticeable and probably unhelpful in your situation. The only time I really dig a 8Ω Celestion setup is with a brighter speaker like the H series, as the midrange is effectively less scooped. In general, the M's work better to my ear with the additional highs and lows of a 16.

And controversially - I usually don't find break-in to be much of a factor at all. The high end may decrease or increase a tad, but that's about it from experience.

 

[FourT6and2]

Yeah they are a bit of a soft sounding speaker, especially if you're directly comparing them to the liveliness of an H75 and the sting of a V30.

And although the 8 vs 16Ω thing isn't huge, it's still noticeable and probably unhelpful in your situation. The only time I really dig a 8Ω Celestion setup is with a brighter speaker like the H series, as the midrange is effectively less scooped. In general, the M's work better to my ear with the additional highs and lows of a 16.

And controversially - I usually don't find break-in to be much of a factor at all. The high end may decrease or increase a tad, but that's about it from experience.

Well... I suppose these M65s are going bye bye. The H75s... or at least my H75s... seem to be my favorite still.

 

[FourT6and2]

It might be a 'break-in' thing and it might be a cabinet thing. I definitely prefer the M65 Creamback - great sounding mids. I also have the experience that the H75 Creamback has better / tighter / punchier lows - but more treble than I like and really hollow mids. I love the M65 with the V30. For my ear, that combo works. But so, so many other variables (amp, guitar, pickups, eq on the floor in front of the amp or in the loop, etc etc) affecting the final 'sound' coming off the cones.

I did have a quad of M65s out of the box and they did take a good long time to really soften up and breathe. Split the quad and running V-30s with them in an 'X' pattern in a straight front cab and its really, really good.

I guess I'm just not hearing this hollow mids thing people keep mentioning about the H75s. Mine seem to be quite full and musical and muscular sounding.

 

[DanTravis62]

Do both Bogner cabs sound the same? Perhaps swap each speaker set to see if some of those traits follow the speakers or influence the other speaker set. I had two “matching” Bogner 4x12s for almost 20 years. They sounded very similar (obviously) but one was 10-15% tighter, more immediate with more midrange. I preferred this one over the other which had deeper but looser lows and more warmth and smoothness. I could see most players preferring one over the other though. Of course I swapped two identical quads of speakers (8 Marshall Vintages and 8 G12-80s) over the years which ruled out speaker inconsistencies. The tonal difference remained in the cabs after the swaps. Even knocking on the top of both cabs in the same spot brought out different, dominant resonant frequencies. The tighter sounding cab produced a higher pitch and the looser one a lower pitched tone, very similar to a drum roll going from higher to lower toms.

This, there could definitely be cabinet differences coming into play

I'm not a big creamback fan so I can't really comment on that part - generally speaking unless they're original vintage ones I'd rather have scumbacks.

 

[braintheory]

I might just go back to regular Greenbacks in this other cab then. Too bad you can't return speakers lol.

I highly recommend the 20w Greenbacks. I like them so much more than the 25w versions. No nasal/bloated mids than some complain about, much tighter, faster and more aggressive, just not as fat, leaner low end, but overall I like them so much more. Since Bogner cabs generally have pretty good thickness to the sound it could be a good fit

 

[braintheory]

It might be a 'break-in' thing and it might be a cabinet thing. I definitely prefer the M65 Creamback - great sounding mids. I also have the experience that the H75 Creamback has better / tighter / punchier lows - but more treble than I like and really hollow mids. I love the M65 with the V30. For my ear, that combo works. But so, so many other variables (amp, guitar, pickups, eq on the floor in front of the amp or in the loop, etc etc) affecting the final 'sound' coming off the cones.

I did have a quad of M65s out of the box and they did take a good long time to really soften up and breathe. Split the quad and running V-30s with them in an 'X' pattern in a straight front cab and its really, really good.

The hollow mids juxtaposed I think with the strong frequencies right above I think is what really bothers my ears, sounds kinda off in some ways to me

 

[braintheory]

Yeah they are a bit of a soft sounding speaker, especially if you're directly comparing them to the liveliness of an H75 and the sting of a V30.

And although the 8 vs 16Ω thing isn't huge, it's still noticeable and probably unhelpful in your situation. The only time I really dig a 8Ω Celestion setup is with a brighter speaker like the H series, as the midrange is effectively less scooped. In general, the M's work better to my ear with the additional highs and lows of a 16.

And controversially - I usually don't find break-in to be much of a factor at all. The high end may decrease or increase a tad, but that's about it from experience.

I agree. I hear a difference, but not massive, certainly at least not something that would make or break my overall experience with a speaker

 

[braintheory]

I guess I'm just not hearing this hollow mids thing people keep mentioning about the H75s. Mine seem to be quite full and musical and muscular sounding.

Maybe they're a very good fit with the cab, amps and pickups used, hard to say. What I mean at least by hollow mids is like this neutral, smooth voicing to them where they don't have much grind, growl or have as much personality to them like the midrange you'd hear in Wizard's, Hiwatt's, VHT/Fryette's, Fane speakers, a Strat bridge pickup. Sorta similar sound to out of phase mics in a way. It sounds like from what you said you heard more aggressive midrange in M magnet spearers like the M65's or Ted's '70's Creamback 25's. That more aggressive midrange to me is Celestion's real forte over other brand speakers. For strong lows or highs I find Fane, JBL or Altec to be much more, but even more hollow mids