Allahu Akbar NYC!

  • Thread starter Thread starter The Blazing Saddle
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SatanicPanic said:
This guy is talking about free bus rides, child care, groceries and rent control. He's hardly trying to "smash the state". Gimme a break, he's not going to end America. The Islamophobia is cringe, too.
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That's what people said about Ilhan Omar too
 
VonBonfire said:
He'll smash the state because a million NY'ers have already left the state, causing them to lose seats in the House.
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Because it's too expensive for working class and esp. the working poor to survive, isn't it? Just like so many parts of our country. Yet, NYC needs them to keep the city running. I think he's popular because he's talking about issues that appeal to the working class.

VonBonfire said:
He'll smash the state because taxes will be increased even further in an already expensive state in order to fund those additional programs and more people will depart.
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I agree taxes are high in NY. The Mayor of NYC does not determine tax policy so he would have to work with the state legislature to enact his policy goals. You're not wrong here. I don't know enough about him to say whether or not he has a workable plan, I'll admit that. I'm not a New Yorker.

VonBonfire said:
He'll smash the state because grifters are drawn to places where there are lots of freebies and ways to bilk the system while making real money selling drugs and fenced items under the table.
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I just don't buy this argument. But, let's say you are right and some people take advantage. If it ends up being a net benefit then it's workable, albeit imperfect. It's nearly impossible to find perfect political solutions that work only as intended.

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We don't dare forget 9/11 but it's time to move on from this idea that every Muslim is a secret jihadist waiting to do "Death to America". It's been 24 years and it never happened. In the meantime we fought two wars and killed the shit out of a lot of Muslims. Weve had enough bloodlust over 9/11, IMO.
 
SatanicPanic said:
I just don't buy this argument. But, let's say you are right and some people take advantage. If it ends up being a net benefit then it's workable, albeit imperfect. It's nearly impossible to find perfect political solutions that work only as intended.
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I grew up in a state where there were tons of socialist style benefits. Yes you could get cheap medical care through the state but you also get people who take their kids to the ER for a sniffle cause they aren't paying for it. It also drew riff raff. People fleeing criminal problems in other states set up shop there. The costs and drawbacks exceeded the benefits IMO. The lack of opportunity in the northern half of the state means there are people with a lot of idle time and so drinking and drug abuse is rampant there. I know a sickening amount of suicides, overdose, and tragic early deaths. I bailed out of there as soon as I could.
 
VonBonfire said:
I grew up in a state where there were tons of socialist style benefits. Yes you could get cheap medical care through the state but you also get people who take their kids to the ER for a sniffle cause they aren't paying for it. It also drew riff raff. People fleeing criminal problems in other states set up shop there. The costs and drawbacks exceeded the benefits IMO. The lack of opportunity in the northern half of the state means there are people with a lot of idle time and so drinking and drug abuse is rampant there. I know a sickening amount of suicides, overdose, and tragic early deaths. I bailed out of there as soon as I could.
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Let me ask you this (just suspend your experience and political viewpoints for a moment, please) America is the richest, most prosperous and productive nation that has ever existed. We all agree on that, I bet. And, it's because the working class made it so. Without the working class none of this prosperity we enjoy could exist.

How is it that a country this rich cannot provide every citizen with basic healthcare coverage at little or no cost? Why do so many working Americans go into medical bankruptcy, a thing which doesn't exist in any other so-called Western democracy? We're getting screwed and scammed. We're being made to believe that some Americans aren't worthy of basic protections that other countries figured out decades ago while WORKING PEOPLE are the biggest losers in our health insurance scam.
 
SatanicPanic said:
How is it that a country this rich cannot provide every citizen with basic healthcare coverage at little or no cost? Why do so many working Americans go into medical bankruptcy, a thing which doesn't exist in any other so-called Western democracy? We're getting screwed and scammed. We're being made to believe that some Americans aren't worthy of basic protections that other countries figured out decades ago while WORKING PEOPLE are the biggest losers in our health insurance scam.
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In a free country I am not forced to pay the medical debts that another has accrued. If I choose to smoke cigs, drink heavily, abuse drugs, engage in high risk activities, or just be a general lardass explain to me how it's fair that you are forced to contribute the effects of my lifestyle choices? I think the idea that society owes people cheap/free medical (among many other things) is a recent development and is socialistic in nature, which is what the nations that provide it seem to be geared towards. They are also taxed at a higher rate in order to cover the additional costs.

On the other hand I know people that go to mexico for dental work because the quality of work is good and the costs are fair. I think we have a system that has been hijacked by greedy corporate pharmaceutical corps, who overcharge Americans while providing reasonable prices abroad. Our leaders have failed us in reigning in these abuses. You are asking good questions but the fix is more complicated than just handing it out for free. I don't have the solution but I do not think English or Canadian style healthcare is the answer.
 
VonBonfire said:
In a free country I am not forced to pay the medical debts that another has accrued. If I choose to smoke cigs, drink heavily, abuse drugs, engage in high risk activities, or just be a general lardass explain to me how it's fair that you are forced to contribute the effects of my lifestyle choices? I think the idea that society owes people cheap/free medical (among many other things) is a recent development and is socialistic in nature, which is what the nations that provide it seem to be geared towards. They are also taxed at a higher rate in order to cover the additional costs.

On the other hand I know people that go to mexico for dental work because the quality of work is good and the costs are fair. I think we have a system that has been hijacked by greedy corporate pharmaceutical corps, who overcharge Americans while providing reasonable prices abroad. Our leaders have failed us in reigning in these abuses. You are asking good questions but the fix is more complicated than just handing it out for free. I don't have the solution but I do not think English or Canadian style healthcare is the answer.
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I appreciate your feedback because you always give an honest answer. But, I will ask one last honest question: if you had to pay slightly more in taxes, but over the course of your lifetime never had to worry about a hospital bill or whether or not an ambulance trip might ruin you would it be worth it? If you ultimately paid less for better outcomes over the course of your life, even if there was some waste and fraud, would you even care?

This is the essence of what Canadians and a lot of Europeans criticize American health care over. They know their system isn't perfect but none of them will ever be financially ruined by healthcare costs, which happens all the time to Americans. They are horrified by the costs that Americans are made to endure.
 
SatanicPanic said:
it's because the working class made it so. Without the working class none of this prosperity we enjoy could exist.
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I don't agree with this. I think it is because America has historically been the most free market oriented country in the world combined with the industrious types that have populated it.
 
Bad Brain said:
I don't agree with this. I think it is because America has historically been the most free market oriented country in the world combined with the industrious types that have populated it.
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If the workers stop working can any American industry prosper? Maybe I am misunderstanding your point.
 
SatanicPanic said:
This is the essence of what Canadians and a lot of Europeans criticize American health care over. They know their system isn't perfect but none of them will ever be financially ruined by healthcare costs, which happens all the time to Americans. They are horrified by the costs that Americans are made to endure.
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I agree with this in spite of what I just wrote. The following got me in trouble in another thread but whatever: I think it's probably better to have an "honest" Scandinavian style democratic/socialist system then the corporatocracy we have here.
 
Bad Brain said:
Well no, but that is part of the point. Societies where everyone is incentived will be more productive than societies with economies that are highly regulated and corrupt.
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Yeah, I actually agree with this in spirit. But, to my point: Americans have already been incentivized to be highly productive and we have delivered on that a thousand fold. Where is the reward for that effort when so many of us are trying to manage stagnant wages, out of control housing, cost of living and healthcare costs? Why do we tolerate so much wealth inequality? Why can't we have a single income provide for a family, house, stay at home mom or dad when we are so fucking rich as a country? This is what frustrates me to no end. We're getting further away from prosperity, not closer to it.
 
SatanicPanic said:
Yeah, I actually agree with this in spirit. But, to my point: Americans have already been incentivized to be highly productive and we have delivered on that a thousand fold. Where is the reward for that effort when so many of us are trying to manage stagnant wages, out of control housing, cost of living and healthcare costs? Why do we tolerate so much wealth inequality? Why can't we have a single income provide for a family, house, stay at home mom or dad when we are so fucking rich as a country? This is what frustrates me to no end. We're getting further away from prosperity, not closer to it.
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100%
 
SatanicPanic said:
I appreciate your feedback because you always give an honest answer. But, I will ask one last honest question: if you had to pay slightly more in taxes, but over the course of your lifetime never had to worry about a hospital bill or whether or not an ambulance trip might ruin you would it be worth it? If you ultimately paid less for better outcomes over the course of your life, even if there was some waste and fraud, would you even care?
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I am averse to "everybody has the right to..." statements unless we are talking about clean drinking water since it is naturally occurring and is something we are all sort of part owners in; a gift from the Lord.

I have a socialist friend who makes those sort of statements about healthcare and education and I always counter with "everyone has the right to play amazing blues guitar". The point being is sometimes access to things requiring heavy time/money investments only can be acquired by those who work for them. I would rather see a society where people are motivated by ideals rather than a profit. I think in such a situation we'd see many of these problems evaporate to a greater degree. Somehow we lost our way in that as medical, dental, and higher education were much more affordable in older times.
 
VonBonfire said:
I am averse to "everybody has the right to..." statements unless we are talking about clean drinking water since it is naturally occurring and is something we are all sort of part owners in; a gift from the Lord.
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The people that subscribe to this mentality are usually the people that accept no personal responsibility for failures or shortcomings and blame everybody else. I blame the participation trophy mentality for this.
VonBonfire said:
I would rather see a society where people are motivated by ideals rather than a profit.
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Agree. Profits are necessary for business, but it seems eithics have gone away. You cannot govern that back into business. It is driven by a people that borderline sociopathy. I blame Gordon Gekko
 
WOOF WOOF

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SatanicPanic said:
Yeah, I actually agree with this in spirit. But, to my point: Americans have already been incentivized to be highly productive and we have delivered on that a thousand fold. Where is the reward for that effort when so many of us are trying to manage stagnant wages, out of control housing, cost of living and healthcare costs? Why do we tolerate so much wealth inequality? Why can't we have a single income provide for a family, house, stay at home mom or dad when we are so fucking rich as a country? This is what frustrates me to no end. We're getting further away from prosperity, not closer to it.
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I agree with you. But in my view the free market foundation for US prosperity has been co-opted by mega-corporations and their politician lackeys. Government has grown like a cancer and is draining productive resources, along with a few select mega-businesses that promote the policies and regulations to monopolize various industries and stifle competition. And by printing money, the Federal Reserve creates a stealth tax that robs people of their savings. Their manipulation of interest rates directly caused the increase in home prices, as suppressing rates made purchasing a house more affordable, thus increasing demand, which drove prices higher. Now we're stuck. No one wants to sell and less people can afford to buy. At some point either prices or rates have to come down. But since inflation is a problem, reducing rates could be counter productive. It's a messed up situation.
 
Bad Brain said:
I agree with you. But in my view the free market foundation for US prosperity has been co-opted by mega-corporations and their politician lackeys. Government has grown like a cancer and is draining productive resources, along with a few select mega-businesses that promote the policies and regulations to monopolize various industries and stifle competition. And by printing money, the Federal Reserve creates a stealth tax that robs people of their savings. Their manipulation of interest rates directly caused the increase in home prices, as suppressing rates made purchasing a house more affordable, thus increasing demand, which drove prices higher. Now we're stuck. No one wants to sell and less people can afford to buy. At some point either prices or rates have to come down. But since inflation is a problem, reducing rates could be counter productive. It's a messed up situation.
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That's really insightful. Great points!

Robostyle said:
Here's where you lost me. Ideas like this sound an awful lot like communism/socialism to me.
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I'm not saying socialism is the answer (it isn't). But, wealth inequality should be considered in evaluating the overall health of the economy and society. IMO, it's way out of whack.
 
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